The SAAF Forum

Discussion on the SAAF and other southern African air forces.
It is currently 22 Jan 2019, 15:39

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 20:23 
Offline

Joined: 31 Aug 2010, 15:01
Posts: 4370
Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
Thought I'd chuck this in the mix - as an avid modeller its important to understand whether the kits we buy are accurate or not. Having AFB Swartkop at my doorstep, and a tape measure in hand, I put together the following on Mirage III and Cheetah wings/canards using the Museum's aircraft to measure :

Firstly - Mirage III wings :

ImageMirage III wings by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIICZ #805 has been fitted with E wings :

ImageIIICZ 805 (left) - IMG_0816 - 800 (1) by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

ImageIIICZ 805 (right) - IMG_0820 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIIBZ #818 fitted with CZ wings :

ImageMirage IIIBZ 818 (left) - IMG_0835 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

ImageMirage IIIBZ 818 (right) - IMG_0836 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIIBZ #816 also with CZ wings :

ImageMirage IIIBZ 816 (right) - IMG_0851 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIIRZ #835 fitted with E wings :

ImageMirage IIIRZ 835 (left) - IMG_0830 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

ImageMirage IIIRZ 835 (right) - IMG_0829 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIIRZ #838 :

ImageMirage IIIRZ 838 (left) - IMG_0823 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

ImageMirage IIIRZ 838 (right) - IMG_0824 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr


Last edited by Mistral on 09 Aug 2018, 20:49, edited 6 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 20:30 
Offline

Joined: 31 Aug 2010, 15:01
Posts: 4370
Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
Cheetah wings :

ImageCheetah wings by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

ImageCheetah D 847 (left) - IMG_0839 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

ImageCheetah D 847 (right) - IMG_0840 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

ImageCheetah E 842 (left) - IMG_0834 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

ImageCheetah E 842 (right) - IMG_0833 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 20:32 
Offline

Joined: 31 Aug 2010, 15:01
Posts: 4370
Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
So, based on the measurements, the Cheetah D/E wings are similar in dimension to the IIIC/E wings with the obvious exception of outboard leading edge chord extension resulting in the dog tooth.

Wings on the Mirage IIIB, C and R are clearly interchangeable and therefore the assumption is that the R2Z, D and D2Z would be the same.

I still need to measure up the Cheetah C wing.


Last edited by Mistral on 09 Aug 2018, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 20:36 
Offline

Joined: 31 Aug 2010, 15:01
Posts: 4370
Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
Cheetah D and E canards are the same dimensions with the same attachment points :

ImageCheetah D and E canards by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Cheetah C canard is significantly larger :

ImageCheetah C canards by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

So the D/E canard is 70% the size of the C canard. The C canard would've been the same as a Kfir canard. Why then the smaller canards on the D/E ? Also unique to the D/E wings is the presence of a wing fence inboard of the dog tooth, maybe required due to the smaller canard ?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 20:45 
Offline

Joined: 20 Aug 2010, 14:40
Posts: 1848
Thanks Mistral for this.

Something to note the C canard is positioned further forward than the D/E. The C canard is in the same position as the Kfir, again pointing to its heritage.

Also the canards fitted to Mirage D/E aircraft are smaller than the canards fitted to Cheetah D/E.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 21:41 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 17:19
Posts: 7291
=D> =D> =D>

_________________
How come every time my ship comes in, I'm at the airport?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 21:49 
Offline

Joined: 22 Oct 2005, 05:47
Posts: 300
Hey Mistral,

Interesting stuff. Thank you :smt023

Mistral wrote:
I still need to measure up the Cheetah C wing.


Are you going to measure the Cheetah R's Advanced Combat Wing as well?

Regards,
Stratobat

_________________
'If the literal sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you come up with nonsense'


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 22:05 
Offline

Joined: 31 Aug 2010, 15:01
Posts: 4370
Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
Stratobat wrote:
Hey Mistral,

Interesting stuff. Thank you :smt023

Mistral wrote:
I still need to measure up the Cheetah C wing.


Are you going to measure the Cheetah R's Advanced Combat Wing as well?

Regards,
Stratobat


They're standing vertically so would be difficult to reach the wing tips. Will post some piccies though.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 11:03 
Offline

Joined: 08 Dec 2016, 10:34
Posts: 75
Location: Melbourne Australlia
That's great ! thanks a lot Malcolm :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 11:30 
Offline

Joined: 15 Feb 2010, 02:11
Posts: 469
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Mistral wrote:
Cheetah D and E canards are the same dimensions with the same attachment points :

Cheetah C canard is significantly larger :

So the D/E canard is 70% the size of the C canard. The C canard would've been the same as a Kfir canard. Why then the smaller canards on the D/E ? Also unique to the D/E wings is the presence of a wing fence inboard of the dog tooth, maybe required due to the smaller canard ?

There's an unsubstantiated theory that Cheetah C were Kfir airframes, re-engined from J79 to 09K50. Everyone "knows" it, but there's no official confirmation. Let's assume that the theory is correct. In that case, the Cheetah C airframe has any structural modifications necessary to support the loads of full-size Kfir canards. Cheetah D and E, on the other hand, are updated Mirage III DZ / D2Z and EZ. Those airframes were not rebuilt to the level needed to support the loads of full-size Kfir canards so 70% canards were fitted.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 16:46 
Offline

Joined: 07 Apr 2008, 11:50
Posts: 4202
AFAIK the Cheetah Cs were built from Nesher airframes. The Nesher was developed from the Mirage 5 and kept the Atar engines.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 16:47 
Offline

Joined: 31 Aug 2010, 15:01
Posts: 4370
Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
Roger the Dodger wrote:
AFAIK the Cheetah Cs were built from Nesher airframes. The Nesher was developed from the Mirage 5 and kept the Atar engines.


Yes Nesher airframes, not Kfir airframes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 16:50 
Offline

Joined: 31 Aug 2010, 15:01
Posts: 4370
Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
CheetahSupporter wrote:
Mistral wrote:
Cheetah D and E canards are the same dimensions with the same attachment points :

Cheetah C canard is significantly larger :

So the D/E canard is 70% the size of the C canard. The C canard would've been the same as a Kfir canard. Why then the smaller canards on the D/E ? Also unique to the D/E wings is the presence of a wing fence inboard of the dog tooth, maybe required due to the smaller canard ?

There's an unsubstantiated theory that Cheetah C were Kfir airframes, re-engined from J79 to 09K50. Everyone "knows" it, but there's no official confirmation. Let's assume that the theory is correct. In that case, the Cheetah C airframe has any structural modifications necessary to support the loads of full-size Kfir canards. Cheetah D and E, on the other hand, are updated Mirage III DZ / D2Z and EZ. Those airframes were not rebuilt to the level needed to support the loads of full-size Kfir canards so 70% canards were fitted.


Ja the only explanation I thought was to do with structural load constraints on III fuselages. But the Cheetah C being Nesher airframes then doesn't add to this explanation, unless the Neshers had reinforced intakes for some or other reason when originally designed / built.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 13:19 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 08 Apr 2013, 19:28
Posts: 328
Mistral wrote:
Ja the only explanation I thought was to do with structural load constraints on III fuselages. But the Cheetah C being Nesher air frames then doesn't add to this explanation, unless the Neshers had reinforced intakes for some or other reason when originally designed / built.


The Neshers were direct copies (clandestinely acquired blueprints) from the Mirage V if I'm not mistaken in which case a reinforced intake area would not make sence since then there would be no reason not to modify the Nesher B's that became Cheetah B's with the same canards as the Cheetah C's. The Ex Kfir C2's converted to use Atar's seems like the more plausible theory in my opinion. Of course something like Nesher rear ends mated to modified Kfir fronts like with Cheetah D 844 seems like a very promising theory and perhaps very plausible even.

MAMBA

_________________
MAMBA

Keep your feet on the ground, and reach for the skies!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 17:48 
Offline

Joined: 31 Aug 2010, 15:01
Posts: 4370
Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
If I recall, the J-79 required a larger fuselage. The Neshers already had the 09K50. They were definitely not Kfir fuselages.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group