The SAAF Forum

Discussion on the SAAF and other southern African air forces.
It is currently 13 Dec 2018, 05:26

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: A400M deal signed
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2005, 21:13 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 21:13
Posts: 1128
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
To summarise the article, SA has signed a deal for an initial 8 aircraft, with a further 6 on option. The first aircraft will be delivered in 2010, and the last of the initial 8 should arrive sometime in 2014.
SA has been accepted as a base investment partner, which means Aerosud and Denel will be getting quite a few lucrative deals for this program.


CAPE TOWN (Reuters) - European aircraft maker Airbus has signed an 830 million euros deal with the South African government to buy A400M military transport aircraft and make the country a partner in the programme.

South Africa becomes the first country outside Europe to join the A400M airlifter programme.

Public Enterprises Minister Alec Erwin told reporters on Thursday that the country's participation in the building of the aircraft on behalf of European NATO countries would revtalise South Africa's struggling aerospace sector.

"We are not an ordinary buyer of this aircraft, we are part of the production consortium," Erwin said.

South Africa will initially buy eight of the wide-bellied military transporters in exchange for a role in the 18-billion-euro development project now shared among seven European nations.

Erwin said its aircraft would cost about 830 million euros and that South African companies, including state-owned defence group Denel, would earn about 430 million euros for their part in constructing the first batch of 188 planes to be built.

It was estimated that another 200 aircraft could be built over the life of the programme, he said.

Airbus said on Thursday South Africa would participate in the design, engineering, industrialisation, manufacture and in-service support for the A400M. The plane will fly in 2008.

"We have accepted South Africa's investment in the A400M programme under similar terms to those of the seven European launch nations," Francisco Fernandez-Sainz, managing director of Airbus Military, said in a statement.

MORE PURCHASES PLANNED

South Africa has previously indicated that it could buy another six transporters, pushing up the total cost up to 1.5 billion euros. It will take delivery of the first plane in 2010 and they would be used for peacekeeping operations in Africa.

The South African National Defence Force's nine Hercules C130 aircraft are approaching the end of their working life and will need to be replaced by about 2010.

Opposition parties have criticised the latest military acquisition, which comes on the heels of 48 billion rand expenditure on new fighter jets, submarines and corvettes signed in 1999.

The main opposition Democratic Alliance (DA) said the deal was designed to rescue Denel which was in serious need of recapitalisation following a string of financial losses.

"The fact that Denel is expected to benefit from defence offsets related to the deal creates the impression that the deal was conceived more to rescue Denel than because of operational requirements for the South African Air Force," the DA said.

The government is developing a strategy for the long-term sustainability of its aerospace sector, centred on Denel.

Germany is expected to take the biggest number of A400Ms at 60, while France wants 50, Spain 27 and Britain 25. Turkey, Belgium and Luxembourg will take a combined 18.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2005, 11:32 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2004, 12:45
Posts: 25
Location: Cape Town-ish
What worries me is the yo-yo character of the reports on this... and I quote from the "News" page on Dean's site...

Quote:
5 April 2005: SAAF Chief appears to pour cold water on military Airbus plans
New SA Air Force chief Lieutenant-General Carlo Gagiano has seemingly poured cold water on South Africa's plans to purchase Airbus Military's A400M. Meeting the press during a visit by US Third Air Force commander Major-General Michael Gould, Gagiano said it was too early to comment on whether a new Airbus aircraft would replace the current C-130 fleet.
etc...

and then...

Quote:
25 April 2005: SA moves closer to Airbus deal
Johannesburg - South Africa is to move closer to purchasing between eight and 14 A400M military transport aircraft this week by signing a further agreement with Airbus to that effect.

SA Air Force chief Lieutenant-General Carlo Gagiano has confirmed the agreement would be endorsed this week.

Gagiano sees the A400M as a replacement for the Boeing 707 fleet, of which three remain on strength and two are operational at any given time.

"The A400M initiative is truly a lifeline for the SAAF and will, together with future decisions on the transport aircraft mix, rejuvenate the SAAF's transport capacity," Gagiano said.


Or should we rather understand from the two quotes above that A400M is not a replacement for the C130 but the 707? Which bugs me, 'cause as far as I understand the A400M was designed as a tactical airlifter a-la Flossie-on-steroids-and-then-some.... we're not going to put a 707 on a dirt track somewhere in central Africa, neither are we gonna stick buddy-pods under a C-130's wings and try to refuel a Gripen... now which of these roles are the A400M going to fulfil? My guess would be much more towards the former than the latter...

Some some educated / informed / at-least-it-sounds-good reply to soothe my wild speculation would be truly appreciated... :shock: :?: :!:

_________________
Go check my bud's site: http://www.avcollect.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2005, 15:03 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2005, 07:26
Posts: 39
Location: Somewhere between Porterville,FACT and London
Hey Pirate

I Dont think using the C130's for refeuling is a bad idea. :-k Why dont the saaf just opperate a fleet of say 15-20 Hercs instead of the Airbusses. If troops must be flown from South Africa to Sudan...a Shuttle service could be arranged with SAL or ever one of the low budget airlines.I know there is a current Com-air or SAA shuttle servise between SA and Burundi.

I say buy more hercs...and leave the Airbusses. Help build them...but don't buy. I really dont mind actually. :D As long as I am the one flying them. \:D/

INFO
http://www.sargentfletcher.com/sfi_info.htm

PICS
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... iram17.jpg

http://www.cloud9photography.us/aar/AAR ... MANCUS.jpg

http://www.rcaf.com/aircraft/transports ... e=Hercules



Bushwack
________________________________
Nothing is Impossible


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2005, 21:33 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2005, 07:26
Posts: 39
Location: Somewhere between Porterville,FACT and London
Some Airbus info

http://www.airbusmilitary.com/specifications.html

Cheers
Bushack


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 03 May 2005, 14:48 
Offline

Joined: 06 Jul 2004, 13:46
Posts: 32
Pirate, if I look at this I am not so sure regarding the "no 707 on dirt strips somewhere in Africa"... :wink:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/485825/M/

sunbear


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 03 May 2005, 17:54 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2005, 07:26
Posts: 39
Location: Somewhere between Porterville,FACT and London
Hey

In the words of Fly_Guy: "You bunch crack me up"

Love the pic!

Cheers
Bushwack

______________________________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 08 May 2005, 03:15 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 21:13
Posts: 1128
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
I think bad journalism had a hand in this, which is sadly nothing new.

Ok, so this is the impression I get:

The A400Ms are intended to either augment or replace the C-130s. Ideally, the SAAF would prefer a mix of aircraft, which could possible include additional C-130s donated by the US from its surplus stocks. This would allow the SAAF to keep the C-130s as tactical transports, slotting in between the A400Ms (used mostly as strategic transports), and the CASAs (more like battlefield taxis).

So that's the reason for Gagiano speaking saying he thought it was too early to say whether the A400M would replace the C-130s, whilst speaking to a senior American military commander...

As for the 707s, there's no reason why the A400Ms cannot replace those as well, especially if we buy 14 of the aircraft.

Basically, we currently use the 707s for aerial refuelling, SIGINT/ELINT/EW work, and strategic transport. All three of those tasks could be fulfilled by A400Ms with minimal modifications, and at a lower operating cost. Well, not quite true, the SIGINT/ELINT/EW mods are significantly more complex, but we don't need 707-size aircraft for that job. We could just as easily use a light, twin-turboprop design like the CASA 295.

As for the question of C-130s vs the A400M, it's really apples and oranges. The C-130 has a max payload of around 18 tons, and a rather small cargo box. In comparison, the A400M has a payload of 37 tons, and a payload box closer in size to that of the C-17.

What this means in essence is that the A400M can carry cargo, such as the Rooikat or Ratel, that the C-130 cannot. Its ability to carry more, further, also means that less flights need to be undertaken for a typical supply or evacuation job.

Which brings me to my final point. Using civilian cargo planes or passenger planes is a problem for a few reasons. For one, the insurance on these aircraft is often dodgy, enormously expensive, and does not allow them to fly into certain areas at certain times. The other problem is that they're not reliable. We cannot know for sure that there will be a charter Il-76 ready when we need it, let alone a fleet of them.

So, let's just say that we have a decently large force somewhere in Africa that comes under attack from a much larger force and suddenly needs evacuation. SAA or other airlines will not fly into some remote strip near the battlezone to evacuate the forces, neither will many cargo operators. Besides, with the latter, we could never get enough planes in time to evacuate all our people in time.
In contrast, with the A400Ms, we're able to send a few planes up north to an airfield near the battlezone, and use our own aircraft, with our own pilots and our own operating parameters, to evacuate our personnel.

This ability to rely on your own aircraft rather than unreliable civilian operators could mean the difference between the soldiers surviving or being annihilated.

So yes, if we're taking force deployment in Africa seriously, I think we need these aircraft. I'd love for the SAAF to continue operating C-130s, but I have to admit that on the strategic transport scale, the C-130s are no match for the A400M.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group