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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 13:03 
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Ok, I agree there is no Makopa missile as yet, but does that mean the only applications for these choppers are "escort" and landing site security?
Surely, with the change in the forces mandate, I can think of more critical applications where the Rooivalk can make a more substantial contributions. Also, the M23's has a more organized force that the Seleka rebels had in the CAR (Bangui). That might lead to more engaging battles for the UN force, that will surely require air-support (CAS). One can also add the Rooivalk's ability to do night time recon and patrol work, searching for specific targets to be engaged with the 20mil canon.
I've seen lots of footage on Youtube, where the Apaches had this kind of offensive engagements, against the Taliban. They engaged them using their guns, at nite.
I would think that it would be SOP for ATH's to operate in pairs. Therefore, if you only have two (one pair) the commander will be severally limited. One has to consider that you will have maintenance issues as well.
So, all things considered, having only two Rooivalks deployed, is no more than a token gesture, if I may say so! :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 16:10 
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boertjie wrote:
So, all things considered, having only two Rooivalks deployed, is no more than a token gesture, if I may say so! :roll:


The whole force is a token gesture. Senior officers estimate it really needs 3 divisions. Despite your readings the UN mandate is not a licence for open warfare. Even now. It's more of the same kidglove type action - but with the usual UN restraint on everything.


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 16:36 
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18 June 2013: defenceWeb

Quote:
No SANDF personnel yet deployed to DRC intervention brigade

Written by Kim Helfrich

South African soldiers earmarked to wear blue UN helmets as part of the world’s body first ever intervention brigade have not gone to the DRC yet.

Department of Defence head of communications, Siphiwe Dlamini, dismissed as “pure speculation” reports that a 1 300-strong contingent of soldiers from 6 SA Infantry battalion supported by elements from Special Forces, paratroopers and engineers had flown to Goma at the weekend.

“The movement was a normal rotation of the UN’s MONUSCO mission in the DRC,” he said in response to questions.

He would also not be drawn on the composition of the South African Defence Force (SANDF) component of the UN intervention brigade.

“The composition and details of components or elements which will comprise the SANDF battalion going to be part of the intervention brigade is something we will not discuss in the media. We view such disclosure as a compromise to the safety and security of SANDF personnel.

“We see no reason why detailed information about our planning and preparedness is needed unless it is to empower the rebels in their planning on how to counter us,” he said.

The more than 3 000 strong brigade will be commanded by Tanzanian Brigadier James Mwakibolwa, and will comprise Malawian, South African and Tanzanian troops. It is anticipated it will be fully operational by September to start execution of its offensive operations mandate against armed groups threatening peace in particularly the eastern parts of the DRC. This is generally viewed as being the M23 rebel group.

Deployment of the brigade, the first for the world body in more than 65 years of peacekeeping operations to be given an offensive mandate, was authorised by the UN in March.


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 20:22 
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No-one said it's a license for open warfare did we!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 20:25 
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boertjie wrote:
No-one said it's a license for open warfare did we!!!!


It's implied by your advocating using gunships in aggressive combat.


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 20:31 
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http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2013/sc10964.doc.htm


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 20:44 
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Quote:
That might lead to more engaging battles for the UN force, that will surely require air-support (CAS)

The mandate is different than any other ever approved for a UN force in Africa - FACT
Very similar to the UN mandate in Afghanistan, I think. Therefore my statement above.
Without trying my best to pull other peoples statements apart, my point is simply that sending only two attack choppers is mostly inadequate.

If three divisions is required, is another discussion altogether. We are not at war and neither are we alone in this. It is a UN force that should be around 3400 men strong, eventually. This force is suppose to be over and above the substantial UN force already in place (MUNOSCO???). South Africa chose to not send a whole "new" force, but rather to utilize its current force, those already deployed, and supplement that force with some additional troops and equipment. If this was approved by the UN, I do not know, but I think this is the way SA has chosen and is most likely forging ahead with this concept.

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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 21:42 
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According to the news article above it is the first "offensive mandate" by the UN since the Korean War.

The "traditional rule of thumb" is that invaders (the UN brigade) need to outnumber embedded defenders (M23) by at least 3 to 1 to have a reasonable chance of success. M23 is "estimated" to number around 10000.


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 23:16 
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Roger the Dodger wrote:
According to the news article above it is the first "offensive mandate" by the UN since the Korean War.

The "traditional rule of thumb" is that invaders (the UN brigade) need to outnumber embedded defenders (M23) by at least 3 to 1 to have a reasonable chance of success. M23 is "estimated" to number around 10000.


M23 just fought a brief civil war (yes drc is so mest up even rebel groups break in to civil war) so that number is old. All so the brigade is ment to provide support to local army who have all ready started there attack. Though the DRC army is hard to judge if these are reguler solders they will not be much help if they one of the more loyal and better trained forces then the attacking force will be far stronger.

All so the one who saide the attack force needs to be larger has failed to menstion the cases through out history where a small force has attacked (not deffend but attack) and not just win but destroy the enemy. A good exanple would be the mongolain golden hord under. They destroyed larger armies of power full countries while being out numberd.


It all depends how we use the force we have.


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2013, 21:46 
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Tanzanian commander? :?

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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2013, 22:55 
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H1017412 wrote:
Tanzanian commander? :?


The SANDF brought it up, a bigger problem is that malawi and tanzania or not best of friends they currently have a border dispute back home.This may mean that the brigade will only be a brigade in name and i truth be 3 battalions working alone but with the same goal. all sharing the same pot. i mean lets put it this way all 3 forces come under attack, who do think the rooivalk will help out first every single time. Unity will be our biggest issue here, none of our forces work together regularly our SOP will not be the same not to mention for malawi and tanzania this will be the first time they have sent troops to the area, witch is why i think the commander should have been SANDF and someone who has served in the DRC before.

SA may end up all alone there (has in CAR) so the force needs to be able to at least defend goma with no outside support. If the 1300 where indeed for the regular UN mission we will at least have a seconded SA battalion up there if need be.


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2013, 09:48 
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There has been some really high activity at Waters lately. The C-17's, most likely for the Obama visits, are in and out, but their has been quite a lot of IL-76's and even a AN-124 (on Wednesday morning) that came in and out of Waterkloof. Makes me wonder about this denial from the SANDF about their deployment. They might not have been deployed to Goma/DRC as yet, but they might have left the country to gather at a assembly point? :?
Who knows? #-o

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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2013, 10:01 
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The SANDF is not really denying it, they're just trying to explain it away as part of the usual MONUSCO troop rotation. Which we know isn't happening as usual because the troops that would've replaced 121 Battalion are going to the FIB instead. So it's a tad bizarre but that's military secrecy for you.

I'd say it's safe to assume that the deployment to Goma is ongoing.


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2013, 20:48 
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boertjie wrote:
There has been some really high activity at Waters lately. The C-17's, most likely for the Obama visits, are in and out, but their has been quite a lot of IL-76's and even a AN-124 (on Wednesday morning) that came in and out of Waterkloof. Makes me wonder about this denial from the SANDF about their deployment. They might not have been deployed to Goma/DRC as yet, but they might have left the country to gather at a assembly point? :?
Who knows? #-o


If you read Dickie Lords books he tells how the terrs monitored take offs from Waters to give Swapo early warning about strike raids and I'm sure this website is monitored in similar fashion by the rebels. So disinformation will be the first priority.


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 Post subject: Re: are we at war(DRC)
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2013, 15:26 
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This is quite different, because the rebels already know how many SANDF personnel are going, more or less where they will be based and will know the second they start arriving at the base near Goma. It isn't the same as during the Border War when disinformation was needed to hide the size and location of each deployment.

The secrecy isn't needed, which is why DIRCO saw nothing wrong with openly announcing yesterday that the soldiers are on their way.


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