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 Post subject: Mirage F1 modifications.
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2013, 17:46 
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The concept behind the Cheetah was that the Mirage III fleet needed upgrading first.
The important point also being that the Mirage F1 was the premier combat aircraft in the SAAF.

Once the Cheetah had been inducted, the plan was to modernise the Mirage F1's.

I do know that a glass cockpit was looked at, and was fitted to one F1. I believe this was Project Neckwar.
Obviously, the SMR-95 re-engining was also considered, to a lesser or greater degree.
Any tweaked ATAR 9K50 from project Carver might also have.
Various EW bulges were fitted to the airframe, and the ventral fins modified to incorporate flares/chaff as part of the RIMS. (Radar and Infra red Misleading System)

I have been reading online, from a person who was peripherally part of Project Carver, who briefly mentions the F1 upgrade.
he states various proposals were looked at, and that he saw various project or concept drawings of these.

He intimates that the upgraded Mirage would probably have had a different nose, and that the verticle fin would probably have had a fairing at its base, like the later editions of the F-16.

Does anybody have any further information or thoughts on this, as well as any other potential/probable idea on the subject?


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 09:23 
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Well yes. The SMR95 engine was fitted to a F1 and this airframe is still in flying condition and airworthy. It is in the possession of Airosud and can be seen at some of the airshows in SA.
The glass cocpit was fitted to one of the SA F1's. I can not recall if it was a AZ or a CZ although I do think that it was a CZ. This was done by the company in Midrand, the name of which I just can not recall. Oh my, the memory is going and I'm not 50 yet :oops:

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 12:30 
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Thanks Boertjie.

I wonder if the F1 programme would have looked at bringing all the CZ and AZ airframes up to a common standard?

After all, apart from the nose, the only difference, as far as I'm aware of, is the bay just behind the cockpit.

Avionics on the CZ, an extra fuel tank on the AZ.

If so, I wonder if the proposed new nose would have gone the route of the AZ or Cheetah E, with a small ranging radar and other avionics, or whether a radar radome with larger radar would have been fitted?

With an avionics bulge at the fin base, there certainly would have been other places for avionics fitment.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 13:11 
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boertjie wrote:
Well yes. The SMR95 engine was fitted to a F1 and this airframe is still in flying condition and airworthy. It is in the possession of Airosud and can be seen at some of the airshows in SA.


And would it not be awesome to see that Super Mirage in action again. Even though still airworthy, she has not flown in years. Would really be great to see her team up with her Master, Blokkies for even just 1 final display.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 13:42 
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Now that's a mouth-watering prospect!

Added to the bucketlist: See Blokkies Joubert fly Mirage F1.

Does anyone know if the Aerosud F1 is still in the blue paint scheme?


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 14:27 
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iamsam wrote:
Now that's a mouth-watering prospect!

Added to the bucketlist: See Blokkies Joubert fly Mirage F1.

Does anyone know if the Aerosud F1 is still in the blue paint scheme?


Yip, she is still in her Blue scheme.....last time I saw her fly.

Not even sure if Blokkies is still current on the F-1....that poor oke hardly has time to visit the loo.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 15:25 
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Does anyone have any figures of what the SMR-95 did for F1 performance over the ATAR 9K50?


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 20:01 
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Okey, sorry for how the figures looks, It came from n Salvo Magazine from 94, by Helmoed-Romer Heitman.
Trust dry = 5.04t
Trust AB = 8.3t
What he sail was about a tonne more than the Atar 09K50, that means about a tonne more at take off weight.
Fuel-efficiency is 0.77, don`t know of what at full power. And it gives about a 100nm more combat radius. And weights 200kg less than the Atar.

Spool up times
3.5sec from idle to full RPM,
5.5sec from idle to full PC.
And they said at that time, an upgrade would cost between R3 and R4 million. Will, see if I can make a copy somewhere, don`t have a scanner.

The glass cockpit was done by ATE if I remember correctly, was done to F1az, the fastest dairy truck, at Swartkops.
ATE also upgraded Spain's F1 in early 2000

Wonder what aerodynamic changes they would have put on for better turning preformence, Strakes?


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 20:02 
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boertjie wrote:
The glass cocpit was fitted to one of the SA F1's. I can not recall if it was a AZ or a CZ although I do think that it was a CZ. This was done by the company in Midrand, the name of which I just can not recall. Oh my, the memory is going and I'm not 50 yet :oops:


It was Mirage F1-AZ "235".


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 20:08 
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Swart Baard wrote:
Okey, sorry for how the figures looks, It came from n Salvo Magazine from 94, by Helmoed-Romer Heitman.
Trust dry = 5.04t
Trust AB = 8.3t
What he sail was about a tonne more than the Atar 09K50, that means about a tonne more at take off weight.
Fuel-efficiency is 0.77, don`t know of what at full power. And it gives about a 100nm more combat radius. And weights 200kg less than the Atar.

Spool up times
3.5sec from idle to full RPM,
5.5sec from idle to full PC.
And they said at that time, an upgrade would cost between R3 and R4 million. Will, see if I can make a copy somewhere, don`t have a scanner.

The glass cockpit was done by ATE if I remember correctly, was done to F1az, the fastest dairy truck, at Swartkops.
ATE also upgraded Spain's F1 in early 2000

Wonder what aerodynamic changes they would have put on for better turning preformence, Strakes?


Dankie SB.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 10:48 
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leading edge wrote:
The concept behind the Cheetah was that the Mirage III fleet needed upgrading first.
The important point also being that the Mirage F1 was the premier combat aircraft in the SAAF.

Once the Cheetah had been inducted, the plan was to modernise the Mirage F1's.

I do know that a glass cockpit was looked at, and was fitted to one F1. I believe this was Project Neckwar.
Obviously, the SMR-95 re-engining was also considered, to a lesser or greater degree.
Any tweaked ATAR 9K50 from project Carver might also have.
Various EW bulges were fitted to the airframe, and the ventral fins modified to incorporate flares/chaff as part of the RIMS. (Radar and Infra red Misleading System)

I have been reading online, from a person who was peripherally part of Project Carver, who briefly mentions the F1 upgrade.
he states various proposals were looked at, and that he saw various project or concept drawings of these.

He intimates that the upgraded Mirage would probably have had a different nose, and that the verticle fin would probably have had a fairing at its base, like the later editions of the F-16.

Does anybody have any further information or thoughts on this, as well as any other potential/probable idea on the subject?

The avionic system which eventually went into the Cheetah C was originally defined as an upgrade for Mirage F1 in 1987 - I was part of the team that worked for 5 months on the avionics definition. One of the problems with this was that we still needed all the F1's for the border war, releasing them for a retrofit would be difficult.

Late in 1987 or early 1988 an unsolicited proposal was received for the supply of additional Mirage III airframes (allegedly ex-Israli Kfirs) complete with the avionics we had defined for the F1s - the proposed cost per aircraft of these airframes plus avionics (without engines) was only slightly more than Denel Aviation had proposed per aircraft for the F1 avionics upgrade on its own. It obviously made sense to do this (additional aircraft instead of updating the F1s, just about the same price) so the Cheetah C contract extension was signed. For the first year or two, the avionics design was carefully kept compatible with Cheetah C airframes and Mirage F1, so the F1s would eventually get their upgrade once the Cheetah C's were in service, but once peace broke out and the border war stopped, the Mirage F1 upgrade option was dropped.

In terms of airframe modifications to make place for the avionics, the only idea I remember from 1987 was to add a hump behind the cockpit (similar to the Israeli A4 hump) but eventually it was decided that if the fuel tank behind the cockpit on the F1CZ was removed, the avionics would fit in an avionics bay behind the cockpit, with only radar in the nose (similar to the F1CZ fit). I think the autopilot, which was HUGE, was also going to be dumped. I was not involved once the Cheetah C development work started in 1988 / 1989, so I don't know what weird ideas those guys came up with.

I thought that modifying the ventral fins for chaff and flare had been implemented - I remember that the original composite design had problems with delamination at high altitude (low temperatures, maybe) so they changed to an all-metal design.

So that's the ancient history. Project Nekwar (originally at ATE) and the SMR-95 re-engining came later.

Oh, and there was also Project Pastor (Denel Aviation, Teklogic / ADS, and Kentron, I think), which started in 1986 or so by reverse-engineering Cheetah D avionic functionality, then moved on to proposing an avionic fit which we wanted to fly in a Mirage F1. But it never went that far - the Avionics department at Denel Aviation was shut down / moved to Kentron in early 2001, with most of the Rooivalk team moving to ATE.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 11:59 
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CheetahSupporter wrote:
leading edge wrote:
The concept behind the Cheetah was that the Mirage III fleet needed upgrading first.
The important point also being that the Mirage F1 was the premier combat aircraft in the SAAF.

Once the Cheetah had been inducted, the plan was to modernise the Mirage F1's.

I do know that a glass cockpit was looked at, and was fitted to one F1. I believe this was Project Neckwar.
Obviously, the SMR-95 re-engining was also considered, to a lesser or greater degree.
Any tweaked ATAR 9K50 from project Carver might also have.
Various EW bulges were fitted to the airframe, and the ventral fins modified to incorporate flares/chaff as part of the RIMS. (Radar and Infra red Misleading System)

I have been reading online, from a person who was peripherally part of Project Carver, who briefly mentions the F1 upgrade.
he states various proposals were looked at, and that he saw various project or concept drawings of these.

He intimates that the upgraded Mirage would probably have had a different nose, and that the verticle fin would probably have had a fairing at its base, like the later editions of the F-16.

Does anybody have any further information or thoughts on this, as well as any other potential/probable idea on the subject?

The avionic system which eventually went into the Cheetah C was originally defined as an upgrade for Mirage F1 in 1987 - I was part of the team that worked for 5 months on the avionics definition. One of the problems with this was that we still needed all the F1's for the border war, releasing them for a retrofit would be difficult.

Late in 1987 or early 1988 an unsolicited proposal was received for the supply of additional Mirage III airframes (allegedly ex-Israli Kfirs) complete with the avionics we had defined for the F1s - the proposed cost per aircraft of these airframes plus avionics (without engines) was only slightly more than Denel Aviation had proposed per aircraft for the F1 avionics upgrade on its own. It obviously made sense to do this (additional aircraft instead of updating the F1s, just about the same price) so the Cheetah C contract extension was signed. For the first year or two, the avionics design was carefully kept compatible with Cheetah C airframes and Mirage F1, so the F1s would eventually get their upgrade once the Cheetah C's were in service, but once peace broke out and the border war stopped, the Mirage F1 upgrade option was dropped.

In terms of airframe modifications to make place for the avionics, the only idea I remember from 1987 was to add a hump behind the cockpit (similar to the Israeli A4 hump) but eventually it was decided that if the fuel tank behind the cockpit on the F1CZ was removed, the avionics would fit in an avionics bay behind the cockpit, with only radar in the nose (similar to the F1CZ fit). I think the autopilot, which was HUGE, was also going to be dumped. I was not involved once the Cheetah C development work started in 1988 / 1989, so I don't know what weird ideas those guys came up with.

I thought that modifying the ventral fins for chaff and flare had been implemented - I remember that the original composite design had problems with delamination at high altitude (low temperatures, maybe) so they changed to an all-metal design.

So that's the ancient history. Project Nekwar (originally at ATE) and the SMR-95 re-engining came later.

Oh, and there was also Project Pastor (Denel Aviation, Teklogic / ADS, and Kentron, I think), which started in 1986 or so by reverse-engineering Cheetah D avionic functionality, then moved on to proposing an avionic fit which we wanted to fly in a Mirage F1. But it never went that far - the Avionics department at Denel Aviation was shut down / moved to Kentron in early 2001, with most of the Rooivalk team moving to ATE.


Very informative post.
Thank you, CheetahSupporter.

The RIMS (Flares/chaff) system was indeed fitted.

If there was to be avionics compatibilty between the Cheetah C and Mirage F1, does this mean a Cheetah C radar in a modified nose for the F1's?

The original source I was looking at stated that a different nose for the F1 was looked at.
I was wondering if this meant a Cheetah E or Cheetah C nose.

Also, he did mention a bulge at the base of the fin, but I see you say you only recall a hump behind the cockpit ala the A-4.

Was the plan to modify all F1CZ and AZ's to a common configuration?
It would make sense to pool those and get a common type numbering 40 or so airframes, or 2 squadrons worth.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 16:22 
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CheetahSupporter wrote:
leading edge wrote:
The concept behind the Cheetah was that the Mirage III fleet needed upgrading first.
The important point also being that the Mirage F1 was the premier combat aircraft in the SAAF.

Once the Cheetah had been inducted, the plan was to modernise the Mirage F1's.

I do know that a glass cockpit was looked at, and was fitted to one F1. I believe this was Project Neckwar.
Obviously, the SMR-95 re-engining was also considered, to a lesser or greater degree.
Any tweaked ATAR 9K50 from project Carver might also have.
Various EW bulges were fitted to the airframe, and the ventral fins modified to incorporate flares/chaff as part of the RIMS. (Radar and Infra red Misleading System)

I have been reading online, from a person who was peripherally part of Project Carver, who briefly mentions the F1 upgrade.
he states various proposals were looked at, and that he saw various project or concept drawings of these.

He intimates that the upgraded Mirage would probably have had a different nose, and that the verticle fin would probably have had a fairing at its base, like the later editions of the F-16.

Does anybody have any further information or thoughts on this, as well as any other potential/probable idea on the subject?

The avionic system which eventually went into the Cheetah C was originally defined as an upgrade for Mirage F1 in 1987 - I was part of the team that worked for 5 months on the avionics definition. One of the problems with this was that we still needed all the F1's for the border war, releasing them for a retrofit would be difficult.

Late in 1987 or early 1988 an unsolicited proposal was received for the supply of additional Mirage III airframes (allegedly ex-Israli Kfirs) complete with the avionics we had defined for the F1s - the proposed cost per aircraft of these airframes plus avionics (without engines) was only slightly more than Denel Aviation had proposed per aircraft for the F1 avionics upgrade on its own. It obviously made sense to do this (additional aircraft instead of updating the F1s, just about the same price) so the Cheetah C contract extension was signed. For the first year or two, the avionics design was carefully kept compatible with Cheetah C airframes and Mirage F1, so the F1s would eventually get their upgrade once the Cheetah C's were in service, but once peace broke out and the border war stopped, the Mirage F1 upgrade option was dropped.

In terms of airframe modifications to make place for the avionics, the only idea I remember from 1987 was to add a hump behind the cockpit (similar to the Israeli A4 hump) but eventually it was decided that if the fuel tank behind the cockpit on the F1CZ was removed, the avionics would fit in an avionics bay behind the cockpit, with only radar in the nose (similar to the F1CZ fit). I think the autopilot, which was HUGE, was also going to be dumped. I was not involved once the Cheetah C development work started in 1988 / 1989, so I don't know what weird ideas those guys came up with.

I thought that modifying the ventral fins for chaff and flare had been implemented - I remember that the original composite design had problems with delamination at high altitude (low temperatures, maybe) so they changed to an all-metal design.

So that's the ancient history. Project Nekwar (originally at ATE) and the SMR-95 re-engining came later.

Oh, and there was also Project Pastor (Denel Aviation, Teklogic / ADS, and Kentron, I think), which started in 1986 or so by reverse-engineering Cheetah D avionic functionality, then moved on to proposing an avionic fit which we wanted to fly in a Mirage F1. But it never went that far - the Avionics department at Denel Aviation was shut down / moved to Kentron in early 2001, with most of the Rooivalk team moving to ATE.



Would the removing of the feul tank behind the cockpit not seriously have affected the range improvement that the F1 has over a mirage 3/Cheetah? Also does anyone have a photo of the feul tank that a F1AZ has behind the cockpit where CZ has avionics? :D

Thanks
MAMBA

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 17:19 
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mamba wrote:


Would the removing of the feul tank behind the cockpit not seriously have affected the range improvement that the F1 has over a mirage 3/Cheetah? Also does anyone have a photo of the feul tank that a F1AZ has behind the cockpit where CZ has avionics? :D

Thanks
MAMBA


As far as I know, only the Mirage F1AZ had the fuel tank there.
The F1CZ had avionics in the same area behind the cockpit.

The F1 had about 40% greater fuel capacity over the Mirage III in any event.
Dick Lord stated that this additional F1AZ tank added 200 litres over what the CZ had.

That rectangular grey box with the curved top behind the cockpit being the amplifier:

Image

Image


Also couple of interesting drawings here, albeit not related to the discussion.
http://charlyecho.com/cutaways/?LGGxcA=&searchtags=F1


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 17:25 
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As I recall the fuel tank behind the cockpit was there to permit a few seconds (cant remember the exact time) of sustained inverted flight, this would refill from the main tanks whenever used.


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