The SAAF Forum

Gentlemen,

I really want a Ferrari for Christmas. SA really wants a P-8A Poseidon for deep ocean and let's face it guys I am not going to get a Ferrari and SA is not going to get the P-8A. What SA can afford is 3-4 C-295 sized, deep ocean, armed, ASW aircraft OR 15-18 King Air sized Coast Guard-role aircraft. The budget simply does not exist to buy both. So, where is today's threat to SA Sovereignty over its OCS and EEZ territorial waters right now: it's not deep water, ASW mission, yes there is a vast need for this requirement, but no money to fill all roles. Right now the pressing need is piracy, smuggling, illegal fishing, pollution, illegal immigration, terrorism, SAR and 95% of those mission requirements can be filled at a very reasonable cost point by the King Air based solution (and furthermore it is an aircraft type already in wide use throughout SA both by military and civilian operators, thus easy to maintain and deploy. Thanks

Not to mention a large pool of potential Reserve Force members who are already qualified on the King Air. They can even base a few King Airs around the coast, A, B and C Flights of 35 Sqn if you will.

Of course, this solution does not take into account the transport requirement, but then the larger C-295 category transport/maritime aircraft is still on the SAAF agenda (budget dependant).

I think the SAAF want good value for money here. Perhaps dual use transport/MPA. What about the EEZ around the Prince Edward Island group. Our fishing recources are being raped down there. It is quite a distance to get down there and there is a need to patrol those waters. This was done with our Boeing 707's. Casa's or perhaps C27J's are needed for that role I think.

Well put and well reasoned. This synopsis is how I see the solution too.



I would even cut the "15-18" down to 10-12 max - a Squadron size.

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I believe it's quite clear that both requirements will not be filled at the same time - in fact I'd be surprised if aircraft for both roles are acquired in this decade!

@Dean I hope you actualy meant 27 Sqdn (that had the Albatrosses). The folks from 35 would surely want the blue water job.

I've just thought of another angle...

If 21 Sqdn were to go to Embraer for their entire fleet (they have a wide range of aircraft that can fit all 21's requirements) maybe it would make sense to add an order for a squadron of EMB 145MP for the blue water role. Given that SA and Brazil are "best friends" these days it could make a lot of sense. What say y'all?
BTW don't forget they also have the KC390 and the EMB 145 also comes in AEW&C flavour with Erieye topping

I think that the EMB-145 is a better value choice (even though the CN-235 is a great and versatile aircraft) with better range and targeting MP system and I would think that 2 of those aircraft would certainly do the deep water job along with the King Air solution for the medium range and coastal work. And let's not forget that the Daks still have some useful life left in them. Best not to scrap them altogether but roll back their utilization as new aircraft are brought on so as to save their remaining useful airframe hours to stretch farther into the future. These aircraft were completely remanufactured when they went through their IRAN several years ago so are still pretty reliable old birds. I would love to have one or two to install my Optimare MEDUSA oil spill monitoring and pollution control sensors to be used to monitor pollution and to be used in the case of any ship collissions or grounding that resulted in an oil spill or ecological disaster a la the NZ mess last week. see www.optimar.de

Thanks and take care all

sorry:

www.optimare.de

Oh and if anyone can put me in touch with (or give me a name of) anyone who is in charge of overseeing this type of procurement activity (especially Project Saucepan) that would be great. I seem to be having a hard time hooking up with anyone who knows who to present our solutions to.

Thanks,

AFAIK no RfI has yet been issued for the project so basically you need to get your name added to the mailing list. Armscor is the procurement agency so you need to make contact with them. It may also be a good idea to explore a possible relationship with Carl Zeiss Optronics, they are based in Irene near Pretoria. As your product is based on a King Air it wouldn't hurt to have a good relationship with NAC, the Beech agents for most of sub-Saharan Africa, they could introduce you to other markets.

If I was a "consultant" this post might have cost you enough to pay for my second home in France! LOL!

R the D,

Thanks for the input. Unfortunately Carl Zeiss is already partnered with L-3 on their Spydr offering. This is a moidification of the USAF Project Liberty birds which utilizes brand new King Air 350ER as a base platform. It is also very similar in configuration to the MEA US CBP MEA aircraft that was awarded to Sierra Nevada corporation with the Selex AESA Martime Surveillance Radar installed. These aircraft carry a price tag for a legacy program-of-record POR of more than $22.0 million each.

We are teaming partners with FLIR Systems, Inc and can offer the same or more mission effectiveness for approximately one-half the price.

I wish I could afford to pay you a consulting fee buy we are not L-3 or Sierra Nevada, thus our lower cost structure. Sorry.... no house in France yet!!

To be eligible to bid (or even to receive notices etc) you need to register with Armscor as a supplier - http://www.armscor.co.za/OnlineSystem/Guidelines.asp

Pic of Albatross 900 back in 1980 at AFB Waterkloof.

Very cool Doug

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So what is the latest deal on this?

Is there going to be a transport/MPA platform AND an inshore patrol aircraft as well?

Perhaps getting rid of the Albatros was a mistake, as from what I've heard they were economical to operate, with plenty of spares for a commonly used engine. They droned quietly and effectively up and down the coast, and only lost 1 aircraft. Probably one of the more often used aircraft in the SAAF, as when I was growing up in Cape Town, they were always flying.

Another thing that bugs me, is that the Shackleton, when loaded with fuel, could fly for well over 6000km, even approaching 7000km with favourable conditions.
What exactly is the Casa 295MPA's maximum range? I have seen 5700km, but have also seen it listed as less.

I know our South Atlantic Islands are around 1800km away from Port Elizabeth, a round trip of about 3600km, so you would hope that they have sufficient patrol or loiter time.

But most importantly, that is a long way from anywhere.

I take it the 295MPA has good single engine performance?

I'm pretty sure the MPA setup includes additional fuel tankage in the cargo area together with the optics and radar operators consoles. Enough extra fuel to add a few thousand ks to the range.