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Discussion on the SAAF and other southern African air forces.
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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2012, 09:35 
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Joined: 03 May 2005, 08:40
Posts: 3364
Location: Whangarei, New Zealand
I did originally have a thread detailing my small military collection but I changed domains and moved house and inadvertently lost the path to the images. Since then it has expanded a little but is still nowhere close to where I want it to be - there is such a lot of stuff out there but my wife would kill me if I bought it all :p

I am into all military things from South Africa, Rhodesia, New Zealand, Canada, Germany, Israel and the former Soviet Bloc. At the moment I don't have anything from the latter two but I'll get there.

BADGES

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1 Para Bn cap badge

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44 Para Regt cap badge

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1SSB cap badge and collar badges

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Rhodesia Regiment cap badge

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Not a badge per se but on the obverse it reads "In memory of my military-service at Walvis Bay". Not quite sure how many NDP's were issued with these - this particular example was my Dad's when he was stationed there in 1969/70.

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I believe that these are current day instructor wings, can anyone confirm? They appear as if they might glow in the dark but they don't (thankfully, not very tactical otherwise).

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Also not a badge per se but given that I have so few rank insignia I have included it here. SA army LT COL post 1994 & pre 2003? (L) and pre 1994 (R).

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Was quite lucky to get this, post 2003? SA army LT GEN rank slide before they went all Eastern Bloc with the red shoulder boards.

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das Verwundetenabzeichen Wound Badge 1939 - for those wounded once or twice by hostile action (including air raids), or frost-bitten in the line of duty. According to wiki, also awarded to civilians post 1943.

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Hitler Jugend Hitler Youth belt buckle - the inscription reads "Blut und Ehre" (Blood and Honour), not quite the things a youth should be concerning themselves with in my opinion.




UNIFORMS

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SAP W/O (A/O Afrik) tunic. It is missing a SAP shoulder title and a few buttons on the cuffs I believe (thanks Wxxxxxxx)

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W/O insignia

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SAN pre 1994 Commander's mess tunic. The officer used to work at Silvermine in intelligence and judging by the garment, must have been quite small in stature.

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Some pretty good tailoring there on the executive curl and the lion

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Apparently these folks are no longer in the business?

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Natal Carbineers SGT tunic - can anyone please tell me why they have Natal Carbineers shoulder titles and only wear the rank on one arm?

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Overalls as worn by RNZAF flight crew (yes those are my hands).

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Canadian Disruptive Pattern (CADPAT) with name badge and rank slide - have the trousers too

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Beret - Royal Canadian Dragoons (armour). Taken from Wiki:

n armies of Commonwealth Realms, most other "royal" regiments feature St Edward's Crown on their cap badge. The cap badge of The Royal Canadian Dragoons is special; it features a springbok with no crown.

During the Second Boer War (1899–1902), during the advance to Pretoria, the RCD set up camp in a field. Regimental legend has it that one of the sentries noticed that some springbok were behaving erratically, and alerted the officers, who ordered a stand-to. This resulted in the defeat of Boer forces that had been trying to sneak up through the fields to attack the Canadian force.
There is no documentary evidence of this incident. The Commanding Officer at that time, Lt.-Col. Louis Lessard, makes no mention of it in his personal papers or his official reports. It is more accurate to state that the RCD wear the springbok as a recognition for the regiment's sterling service in South Africa. Three members of a single unit winning the Victoria Cross in a single action on a single day has been surpassed only once, at Rorke's Drift in 1879.

The commander of the RCD then put a request to King Edward VII, the reigning monarch, to officially have their cap badge changed to the springbok, which was finally accepted in 1913.

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SAAF flight cap and SAP cap.

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South African Infantry (Intel?) School of Armour? National Ceremonial Guard

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Corps belt - Army Intelligence?

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Corps belt - School of Armour?




FLASHES

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1 Para Bn (1980s) E Coy (restrike

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1 Para Bn (1970s) metal

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Para Bn D & G Coy? Can someone confirm please which is which or if I've got it totally wrong

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School of Infantry - B Coy

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Western Cape Command HQ - E Coy (restrike)

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Reconnaissance Regiment HQ




MEDALS

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Military Merit Medal (MMM), Pro Patria, South Africa medal?, General Service Medal, 10 year Good Service medal

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UNITAS medal - awarded for integration of SADF and liberation "forces".

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Rhodesian General Service Medal - this one belonged to my Dad

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German campaign medal (SFOR) Yugoslavia

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NATO medal for the same campaign

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MISCELLANEOUS

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44 Para Regt challenge coin

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A board of unit flashes that I acquired years ago from my friend's (who was in the SAAF at the time) Oupa who was a W/O in the SAMHS for many years. It used to have a little SA flag in the middle but it got lost, I recently threw together the quad-services graphic but by paper cutting skills let me down so it is a little squiff.

The flag I bought at the Voortrekker monument before I left South Africa.


First row
3 Electronic Workshop, North Western Command, Southern Cape Command, Natal Command, Orange Free State Command, Witwatersrand Command, Defence Headquarters, Army Gymnasium, 1 Signals Regiment, School of Signals, 2 Field Engineers.

Second row
2 Signals Regiment, School of Engineers, Southern Cape Command Workshop, Witwatersrand Command Workshop.

Third row
Technical Services Corp Training Centre, Northern Transvaal Command Workshop, School of Armour, Orange Free State Command Workshop.

Fourth Row
82 Technical Stores Depot, 83 Technical Stores Depot, 84 Technical Stores Depot, 86 Technical Stores Depot, 61 Base Workshop, North Western Command Workshop, School of Artillery, 35 Engineers Support Regiment, 1 Special Services Battalion, Danie Theron Combat School, Natal Command Workshop.

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Last edited by H1017412 on 09 Jan 2012, 08:13, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2012, 10:11 
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Its growing nicely
The badge is a Military Police (SACMP) on the beret not Ceremonial Guard.
Western Province Command, the Company flash belongs to the SACMP (Military Police)

The "Wheel" Warrant Officer rank insignia is in the wrong place, it sits between the wrist and elbow, not on the side of the forearm where it is now at the end of the buttons which is on the outer side of the forearm and would be facing backwards standing and on the table top if you sat down. if you want some buttons and two SAP titles I have loads (PM me with your address) looks like four are needed two more for each side as there is three on each cuff.

Also missing
From the right sholder is the whistle cord, either in blue cloth or the earlier leather version they go into the top pocket. It was still worn even though whistles were not issued for decades
Then either a leather combination belt,
SAM brown or
a cloth belt same colour as the tunic with a brass buckle had to be worn.
From W/O and upwards, SAM browns were worn on ceremonial occassions with leather gloves
The new SAPS tunic is adiiferent cut and a belt is not worn.

This was my old rank, I just missed the days of the stick by a year, was looking forward to wacking the juniors with it, common practice back then when the really messed up. It could only be carried though if not carrying a firearm, even a pistol in the old leather combination gear.


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2012, 10:16 
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It is indeed a NCG beret, it features the SACMP badge because its members are drawn from that unit. SACMP have a red beret. (It is my sister's beret).

I think you are also mistaken on the Western Cape Command being SACMP - as far as I'm aware all Command HQ's are in red and yellow, just as all infantry flashes were black and green.

Could you please be more specific about the exact placing of the W/O badges?

They are placed directly above where the outer cuff design ends which is quite a prominent feature - placing it anywhere else just seems odd? I appreciate that you were involved with that but could you please be more specific about the correct location as your description above seems somewhat confusing - do you have a picture perhaps that illustrate it?

ps: Sent you a PM a while back, did not you receive it? :)

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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2012, 10:32 
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The Ceremonial Guard are SANDF so not my strong point as I do not collect that, the badge I am familiar with for them is a Lions Head, I think you are right with the company flash.

The Company insinia badges have over 14 colour variations,
Green yellow black infantry
Dark blue, light blue & green signals


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2012, 19:47 
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Certainly expanding H! :)
Quote:
Hitler Jugend Hitler Youth belt buckle - the inscription reads "Blut und Ehre" (Blood and Honour), not quite the things a youth should be concerning themselves with in my opinion.

Without instilling values and principles at a young age using the HJ, the Wehrmacht would not have been the very formidable fighting machine that it was. The abscence of backbone in much of today's youth is glaring ....

Quote:
Overalls as worn by RNZAF flight crew (yes those are my hands).

I say H, where's the head then .... :shock:
What is the status of the RNZAF these days? What future plans for aircraft acquisition etc?

Thank you!

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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2012, 23:19 
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Heh, I don't think that the words "values" and "principles" are words that can be readily associated with Nazis but I understand and agree to a certain extent with what you're saying - especially regarding the youth of today.

It seems to me that the current generation (and I'm generalising here) have little or no respect for their elders or those in positions of authority. Their attitude is one of "give me" rather than "I must work for / earn". There are a lot of factors which I believe combine to generate this attitude:

1. Parents who don't instil these values in their kids from a young age.
2. An entrenched welfare system (I don't have to do anything because the government will look after me)
3. Easily available credit (I don't need to save to buy this item, I can just tic it up and spend my life paying off interest)
4. Banning of corporal punishment in schools and restrictions on the use of force by parents to discipline their kids (I realise that in many instances this has been abused in the past but I feel that the laws have swung too far the other way)
5. No more national service
6. Law enforcement having to pander to people's "rights". (In my opinion if you're caught red handed TWOC'ing or burning houses or <insert anti-social behaviour here> you shouldn't be asked "Please sir, step into these handcuffs and ooo, mind your head when getting into the car". Again - these police powers have been abused in the past but see last part of point 4).
7. Gratification of violence in the media - being a "gangster" is somehow cool. You have all these white, middle-class kids dressing in clothes that make them look like they're clothed by an orphanage trying hard to think that they're from Harlem or south-central LA and that they're tough guys. Pathetic.

I could go on and on but I've hijacked my own topic.

RNZAF

Still largely more "air" than "force" I'd say and that's not being mean or nasty to them, it's simply that they have an extremely limited strike capability. I believe that they have received two of the eight NH-90 medium utility helicopters that they've ordered to replace the UH-1 "Huey's" for evaluation and they might be put into active service later this year with the rest following next year.

Apart from that, they are - like the rest of the NZ armed forces - a professional outfit who do the best job with the tools available to them.

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PostPosted: 10 May 2012, 07:37 
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Well, the expansion continues! 8) Please excuse the blurriness of some of the photos (rush job). I've a couple of items I could use some help identifying but here goes:

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Can someone please identify these? I suspect one has something to do with Natal but what, I don't know.


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2SSB & SACMP stable belts


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Wall plaque commemorating someone's time "oppie grens". Has SJM du Plessis carved onto the back.


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Face cam and tin opener (unused)


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SAP holster and MP brassard. The holster has KOL J J Venter written on the inside


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FLTR:

1. Defence Medal (sans ribbon) awarded to a "M16108 H. KRIEL".
2. Not quite sure what this but the obverse features the outline of the castle with the date 21-5-1961. I'm assuming that this commemorates the establishment of the SADF?
3. This seems to have something to do with ISCOR and on the obverse, under the pin has the number 164 and at the bottom a small proof mark with the letters SAM.


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Rhodesian army shirt


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SAP jacket of some kind?


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SAP shirt and some very worn pants


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I found this on FleaBay. It is a 1950's era US Marine Corps tunic belonging to a L/CPL from New Jersey according to the mark inside. I bought the rifle / pistol qualification badges separately. I went and found some decorations for the time period as well, namely United States Korean Service Ribbon Bar, the United Korean Service Ribbon and National Defense Service Ribbon Bar.


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PostPosted: 11 May 2012, 10:53 
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Could anyone please identify my mystery items? [-o<

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PostPosted: 11 May 2012, 16:28 
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Cool collection you got going here Ryan :smt023 :mrgreen:

Not sure of the cloth one, but the enamel flash is the SA Army College, 1970's - current.

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PostPosted: 11 May 2012, 22:48 
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Super, thanks for that Brent! Now I just have to figure out what the cloth one is - as well as the other two metal badges / pins. The cloth one looks familiar to me for some reason.

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PostPosted: 11 May 2012, 23:27 
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Lots of "google-fu" was required here ... :D :D

Cloth Badge is US Army Africa/Southern European Task Force.

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Heraldry/ArmyDUISSICOA/ArmyHeraldryUnit.aspx?u=8313

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PostPosted: 12 May 2012, 04:12 
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Thanks Brent - I knew it was familiar, I'm sure that someone else on this forum has one of these in their collection too.

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PostPosted: 12 May 2012, 04:16 
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Some SAAF envelopes which I came across not too long ago. On the reverse of each is a little blurb in English and Afrikaans about what the picture on the front represents. In the envelopes themselves is a little story about what aircraft the envelope was transported on etc.

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And then my final envelope commemorates the 25th anniversary of the establish of the NZ SAS, signed by the founder himself, Colonel Frank Rennie CBE, MC.

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PostPosted: 15 May 2012, 08:58 
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Just added this as of today, 1.8m x 1.2m SADF flag in perfect condition. :D It really dominates my office:

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PostPosted: 15 May 2012, 09:55 
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H1017412 wrote:
Just added this as of today, 1.8m x 1.2m SADF flag in perfect condition. :D It really dominates my office:

Awesome addition ....I still see lots of unused wall-space :-)


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