The SAAF Forum

Discussion on the SAAF and other southern African air forces.
It is currently 24 May 2013, 11:25

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2011, 18:58 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 1137
Location: Travelling the UK & Europe by Motorhome
The British press has been full of it all week. There is certainly a new urgency within Whitehall as regards Iran.

Quote:
The Times - Friday 4 November 2011

The Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak held talks in London yesterday with the Foreign Secretary William Hague, the Defence Secretary Philip Hammond. British and Israeli officials confirmed that Iran was discussed.
General Sir David Richards, Britain's Chief of the Defence Staff, has been holding talks in Israel this week with Israeli Defence Force Chief Lt Gen Benny Gantz.

Below a hotlink to how The Mail reported matters - with some good pictures and diagrams.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lants.html

_________________
Travelling in Europe - including photos.
http://anewad.blogspot.co.uk/

My Portfolio of Airplane Pictures
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/member ... php?p=6981


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2011, 12:25 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 1009
Location: Cloud 9
Yeah, it looks like the final phase of the USA taking over the Middle East is about to start.

_________________
The first thing you do when you find yourself in a hole is you stop digging!

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gi ... 2681351417

The Book Worm: http://novelbooks.weebly.com/index.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 18:28 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 1137
Location: Travelling the UK & Europe by Motorhome
The worsening relations between the UK and Iran has moved up another notch, after the instruction by the British Foreign Office that all Iranian Diplomatic staff must leave the UK within 48 hours. Expulsion is a more apt description.

This after the invasion and damage to the British Diplomatic compound in Tehran.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/11 ... k1%7C87059

Image

_________________
Travelling in Europe - including photos.
http://anewad.blogspot.co.uk/

My Portfolio of Airplane Pictures
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/member ... php?p=6981


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 01:59 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2005, 08:40
Posts: 2667
Location: Whangarei, New Zealand
Balerit wrote:
Yeah, it looks like the final phase of the USA taking over the Middle East is about to start.


I would be very surprised if the USA and by association, the UK, would seriously engage in what would enivtably be a prolonged war against a country bigger than Iraq & Afghanistan combined. Public opinion for one in both countries, just isn't there.

_________________
A plan is simply a basis for change.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 13:28 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 1137
Location: Travelling the UK & Europe by Motorhome
H1017412 wrote:
I would be very surprised if the USA and by association, the UK, would seriously engage in what would enivtably be a prolonged war against a country bigger than Iraq & Afghanistan combined. Public opinion for one in both countries, just isn't there.

Public opinion for now, yes you have a point, but people change minds very quickly once the threat stares them in the face. And to be honest, there is a whole host of other reasons one could put forward as to the difficulties of taking on Iran.

HOWEVER .... :)

and I will be brief:-

- The nature and conduct of modern warfare has changed, you do not always need boots on the ground. Technology, stealth and guile are the new doctrines. The Iranians are weak on these.
- The Americans, NATO and Israel will not allow the Ayatolahs a nuclear bomb. Short, sweet and simple.

Speaking for myself, this 'Gathering Storm' as I refer to it, is a necessary confrontation and should be faced down as soon as possible. The reasons should be obvious.

_________________
Travelling in Europe - including photos.
http://anewad.blogspot.co.uk/

My Portfolio of Airplane Pictures
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/member ... php?p=6981


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 18:30 
Offline

Joined: 03 Mar 2008, 08:21
Posts: 610
boots will all ways be needed on the ground. Air striks will only drive the program under ground and delay it. But it will not stop it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 21:10 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2005, 08:40
Posts: 2667
Location: Whangarei, New Zealand
Tally-ho wrote:
H1017412 wrote:
The nature and conduct of modern warfare has changed, you do not always need boots on the ground. Technology, stealth and guile are the new doctrines.


I cannot disagree with you more on this point. Wars cannot - and have never been won - without committing troops on the ground. You cannot hold the ground if you have no troops to hold it.

_________________
A plan is simply a basis for change.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 22:18 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 1137
Location: Travelling the UK & Europe by Motorhome
@ sob
@ H1017412
Thanks for your responses guys.

@ sob
Quote:
Air striks will only drive the program under ground and delay it. But it will not stop it.

1. Air strikes is one component of modern warfare, and even if it drives them "underground", no military programme of this magnitude can be completed "underground". Think costs and laboratories and launch sites. At some stage they will need to pursue tests and trials on the surface, and then you hit them again, by which time their economy and infrastructure cannot take it anymore and the programme will collapse.
2. Iraq and Syria never recovered after air strikes on their nuclear facilities.

@ H1017412
Quote:
Wars cannot - and have never been won - without committing troops on the ground.

Modern warfare has many faces these days:-
1. Economic sanctions.
2. Financial friezing and curtailment.
3. Modern media eg press and television and the Internet.
4. Motivating and energizing the oppressed population inside the country - think Tunisia, Egypt and Libya. Probably Syria soon. Iran already has a large percentage of disaffected.
5. A surgical strike on nuclear and other military installations inside Iran will cripple their ability to hit back - like Operation Desert Storm in Iraq 1991. Yes, the younger Bush had to finish the job in getting rid of Sadam, something which Bush Snr neglected to do.
6. The Americans, NATO and the Israelis are masters of electronic warfare in all of its applications, and well practised at it too.

Modern warfare no longer dictates battalions of GI's, squaddies and troepies to win it. Perhaps, some deployment of Special Forces. Iran as a country is not the enemy, those hell bent on the A-bomb are.

Guys, I'm talking Iran and the Ayatohlas and their henchmen. Other scenarios may need other solutions.

Thank you.

_________________
Travelling in Europe - including photos.
http://anewad.blogspot.co.uk/

My Portfolio of Airplane Pictures
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/member ... php?p=6981


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2011, 11:02 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 1137
Location: Travelling the UK & Europe by Motorhome
Latest press reports (brief extract) in London today.

Quote:
Report: Mysterious blast in Iran's Isfahan damaged key nuclear site

London Times quotes Israel intelligence officials as saying that satellite images show this week's reported blast in Isfahan was 'no accident.'

A mysterious blast which reportedly rocked Isfahan in western Iran on Monday damaged a key nuclear facility in the city, the Times of London reported on Wednesday. On Monday, Haaretz cited Iranian media as reporting that an explosion was heard near Isfahan, home to a uranium conversion plant operational since 2004.
According to reports by the semi-official Iranian Fars news agency, frightened residents called the fire department after the blast, forcing the city authorities to admit there had been an explosion. Residents reported that their windows shook from the explosion's force.
At first, Iranian officials denied the reports, with the governor of Isfahan later alleging that the blast was caused by an accident that had occurred during a nearby military drill.

However, a report in the Times on Wednesday alleged that the blast had not been a military accident, and that the city's nuclear facility was damaged.

The report quotes Israeli intelligence officials who based their conclusion on updated satellite images showing smoke billowing from the direction of the conversion plant. According to the Israeli sources, there was "no doubt" that the blast had damaged the nuclear facility, and that the explosion was not an "accident."

_________________
Travelling in Europe - including photos.
http://anewad.blogspot.co.uk/

My Portfolio of Airplane Pictures
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/member ... php?p=6981


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2011, 11:27 
Offline

Joined: 03 Mar 2008, 08:21
Posts: 610
You are correct. This so called new form of war fare may stop iran building a real nuke but they will still build something. And nuke dose not need to be good to do a lot of damage. A simply suit case based dirty bomb near a US base in the middle east could be possibly. And iran could say it was some terrorist and blame the west saying there air strikes comprised the facility's defense allowing terrorists access.

1. Economic sanctions.

They need the USSR and China to agree to be effective

2. Financial friezing and curtailment.

Ditto above

3. Modern media eg press and television and the Internet.

How will that work. People have made up there mind on iran and will not change

4. Motivating and energizing the oppressed population inside the country - think Tunisia, Egypt and Libya. Probably Syria soon. Iran already has a large percentage of disaffected.

The so called opposition in iran is no better than the ruling party. The protest over the election fraud where not after democracy but a different nut job

5. A surgical strike on nuclear and other military installations inside Iran will cripple their ability to hit back - like Operation Desert Storm in Iraq 1991. Yes, the younger Bush had to finish the job in getting rid of Sadam, something which Bush Snr neglected to do.

Boots on the ground. Even if small. Could work

6. The Americans, NATO and the Israelis are masters of electronic warfare in all of its applications, and well practised at it too.

How will this stop a nuke program.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2011, 13:03 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 1137
Location: Travelling the UK & Europe by Motorhome
Hi Sob
Quote:
1. Economic sanctions.
They need the USSR and China to agree to be effective
2. Financial friezing and curtailment.
Ditto above

Russia (USSR is long gone for the same reasons) and China had no objection to military action in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Neither do they support Syria.
Quote:
3. Modern media eg press and television and the Internet.
How will that work. People have made up there mind on iran and will not change

Modern methods of communication means that Iranian citizens have access to the outside world and not just 'Ayatolah' news. The same as was the case in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and maybe soon Syria.

4. I beg to differ.

5. We seem to agree here.

6. The Iranians will not have a cooking clue as to what will happen next. Electronic eyes and ears will find everything and anything, without the Iranians knowing it. And don't forget the eyes and ears of the people themselves, the same way they found Sadam H and Osama B L and Khaddafi. PEOPLE TALK.

The dictatorships of the Arab world are falling one by one - so too will the Ayatohlas and their henchmen.

_________________
Travelling in Europe - including photos.
http://anewad.blogspot.co.uk/

My Portfolio of Airplane Pictures
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/member ... php?p=6981


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2011, 15:14 
Offline

Joined: 10 Oct 2011, 16:03
Posts: 27
I agree with both sides, Modern warfare has changed rendering troops less effective than they were during the world wars and cold war, however there will always be a need for troops in almost every single theatre of battle.

An example of why I say this is the new "smart" cluster bomb the Americans built which has being reported as being able to destroy an entire tank battalion, so 1 plane renders hundreds of boots and wheels useless. Predator drones have proven their efficiency at taking out key military targets whether communication systems, senior commanders, weapons stashes etc. rendering the enemy troops weak and unable to mount a decent offensive, however in both the cluster bomb and predator drone arguments, you still need boots to go and clean up what the smart weapons didn't get, however you need a lot less boots than you would if the smart weapons were not there.

So modern warfare is not rendering boots obsolete, simply less valuable than they used to be (for lack of a better word/statement)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2011, 16:13 
Offline

Joined: 03 Mar 2008, 08:21
Posts: 610
by saying you need China and Russia to agree to sanction i mean in the context of the UN both are permanent members of the UN security council and can veto any sanctions. with out them any sanctions will not has Russia will act has a middle man.


on electronic warfare you made your point. In any battle with the west Iran will not know what is going on. This will no cause them to loose but will add the west in victory

with media i still disagree. The people of Iran are very proud and might know that there leaders are wrong but will not support any western interference.


i agree Iran will fall but not because of western force. It will collapse in on it"s self in internal conflicted. Maybe a civil war.


I think the west should keep this has a low intensity combat has they can. Hit there oil terminals and fuel deports(Iran must actually import refined fuel) find and extradite Iran scientist working for military purposes and hit there ability to retaliate with surgical strikes. This will not destroy Iran but will remove the threat all with out having to occupy. But there will have to be boots on the ground getting shot at.


And Don't think Russia is not a play in the world they may be weaker and poor bur they have all ways been weak and poor and yet can tangle with the giants look at napoleon and Hitler


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011, 08:47 
Offline

Joined: 26 Feb 2009, 11:40
Posts: 825
Location: Waterfalls , Harare south
Iran wont be a walkover like Libyabecause a few days ago they hacked ,hijacked and brought down a US drone. (go iran go)
Quote:
American-Iranian relations could be strained as reports indicate that an American UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle), or drone, was “hijacked” and brought down by an Iranian-cyber warfare unit. The operators of the unmanned drone reported losing control of the aircraft. More so, the downed drone apparently was only slightly damaged and was recovered by Iranian officials. It is unclear whether or not this was a test by Iran's cyber warefare organ, a true act of aggression, or a show of force on the part of Iranians. What remains clear is that an American UAV now lies in the hands of Iran.

Aside from the likely international relations ramifications that this episode will cause, it is also important to wonder how a piece of sophisticated U.S. military machinary could be "hijacked." This crisis represents a need for the U.S. military to buttress its cyber defenses, especially in regards to drones.

Iran has a history of acting out against America, in many ways, and this could be another critical situation in the already soured relationship between the two states. But it is also a very serious matter when American technology is hacked into and controlled by another operator.

This is the second time in two months the U.S. drone fleet has been hacked.

These drones have become a major part of America's military apparatus, and to ensure their continued use, they must be inaccessible to other nation's cyber systems. Immediate action must be taken against Iran to ensure they can no longer infiltrate America's military related computer networks and systems. Actions must be taken to foolproof the communication systems between ground operators and UAVs.

Whether action is taken against Iran to stop them from doing this again, or actions are taken to defend our systems is another story. What needs to happen is a reconsidering of how we allow our UAVs to operate without cyber defense or security measures.

It was also reported that the type of UAV, RQ-170 is not the most advanced UAV in use today.

This story is still unfolding. What do you think? Was this an act of aggression against America's military influence in the Afghanistan region? Was this a test? Or, is this a taste of things to come, until America acts?

http://www.policymic.com/articles/2709/ ... d_scroller

_________________
"My dream is that somehow South Africans and Zimbabweans create relationships of such a nature that the Limpopo river is no longer a border, but is a source of water and food.” -Bishop Paul Verryn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEbv02k7Ag


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011, 12:33 
Offline

Joined: 03 Mar 2008, 08:21
Posts: 610
Good find.

My points.

1: This is why there will all ways be manned combat aircraft.

2 if the drone was in iran air space there is nothing the Americans can do iran was in the right.

3. The I wonder how you stop the drone being hacked.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group