The SAAF Forum

Hi guys....hope you all on the forum had a good weekend.

I was thinking, after with some chatting with the guys at Waterkloof at the Waterkloof Air Show, it came to light that the CASA's are to be phased out due to running costs. Which does seem strange, but yes, this is what they said. Now this brings me to my question and line of thinking over the weekend.

SAAF are looking for new Maritime Patrol aircraft. The CASA's are used across the globe as Maritime Patrol aircraft by various air forces, why not move the CASA's then to that roll. Sure beats the price of having to buy new aircraft, if the SAAF already have a type which is suitable for the Maritime roll.

Anybodies thoughts on my thoughts over the weekend?

Nice idea, but there are a few problems with this solution.
Our Casa 212s are getting really old thats why their running costs are climbing all the time. They need replacement.
While it is true the Casa 212 is used all over for Maritime Survielance, they are always a short range aircraft supporting a longer range patrol aircraft wuch as P3, C130, ATR72, C295 etc. Their range and endurange is simply too little to cover the massive area of responsibility South Africa has.
Also our 212s are purely transport versions, and for the cost of retro fitting them to make them maritime surveilance aircraft we might as well buy something off the shelf.
Ideally SA needs a long range MPA capable of conducting SAR, Maritime Surveilance and carry weapons for Anti Surface Unit and Anti Submarine Warfare. Even brand new C212s cannot fulfil this role.
Hope that sheds some light on the topic

@Clifford3959

Yes, very valid point.

If the SAAF could use the Piaggio Albatross many years ago to maintain some MPA capability, the CASA can fill this void too. What is the state of and hours on these aircraft? Yes, something more grand may be wanted, but has SAAF got the money?

Good idea

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Thanks King of Swing, That does make complete sense, but my thinking is, that this could be a interim sollution, could help take off the work load from the Daks. It is not as if the SAAF can be picky.....CASA's are much younger than the Daks.

Well just my thinking anyway, not as if the SAAf are gonna listen to us any way.

Thanks

The CASA 212 is not a suitable platform for MPA duty at all.
The CASA 235/295 on the other hand is!!!
A P3 or similar is to expensive for SA and to use a 4-enjined C130 for this is surely more expensive than the C235/295
I'm absolutely convinced that SA's future MPA should be of the C235/295 stable! That and most, if not all, the equipment added, should be from the SA'n defense manufacturers!

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I am in fact referring to the CN 235........

The Albatross was a MPA back in the days yes. But it was just a inshore patrol aircraft supplementing the long range Shackleton. The Casas may be younger than the Daks but their operating costs are much higher and their servicability much worse than the Daks so would not do much good. And not like we could just fly them as MPAs as is, they would need years to complete the refitment and testing to a maritime role. The Dak was already an interim solution when the Shack was retired, they will hold a while longer until the SAAF decides on a real MPA once and for all.

The C295 is a very good solution for the SAAF's needs. The SAAF needs new medium transports (replace the Daks and old CASAs) and the C295MPA replaces the Shackletons (Remember the "good old days" when SA used to have a deep ocean patrol capability) The C295MPA has a proper sensor suite and hardpoints for AS missiles (Harpoon or Exocet) and torpedoes. The frigates already have Exocet (though the air-launched version doesn't have the rocket launching booster for launching from a ship) and the MPA can share torpedoes with the Lynx.

Take a look at http://www.airbusmilitary.com/Surveillance/C295.aspx and notice who are already using it.

Embraer also offer a MPA aircraft but as it is based on their airliner range the "plain transport" version doesn't have a tail ramp for bulky items or a rough field capability. The CAF has said on many occasions that they are looking for a single type to fill the MP and medium transport role.

South Africa is responsible for a very large oceanic SAR area - half of the South Atlantic and also the southern part of the Indian Ocean to a line halfway to Australia. Southwards the area of responsibility extends all the way to Antarctica (We also have a share in SAR on the Antarctic continent)

For the inshore MR role (Albatross replacement - patrolling the EEZ) the SAAF is looking at someting in the King Air 350 class - fitted with radar and optronic sensors but no weapons.
See http://www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/militar ... atrol.aspx

There is a loooong topic here somewhere about the whole transport and maritime aircraft issue.

The SAAF has only one CN 235

Yip...they can use it, but yes it could be costly to kit it out to do the roll as MP

This time I will stand in the naughty corner ....

Why can't the CASA 212's parked at Waterkloof not be used for something other than rotting away in the sun? Yes, it is not an MPA, but it could do Coast Guard duties and off shore patrols. Something is better than nothing!

They are there in flying condition, equip them with some surveillance capability and a few other gadgets and gizmos, and you have aerial eyes and ears. SAAF is a long way from being able to afford a serious MPA, in my opinion. Some fancy VIP jets seem to be the flavour of the month ....

See link below on how Casa-212's are used for maritime purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CASA_C-212_Aviocar

Swedish Coast Guard
Argentinian Coast Guard

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Why do I have a vague thought in the back of my head that there was a time when the 212s were used for paratroop training and one was kept "on standby" for the Special Forces?

They are still used.....in fact they were used just the other day to do cargo drops over the Swartkop show

What about the C27J Spartan. It was showed off to great effect at Ysterplaat a while back. The Americans are keen to flog SA a few at a good price.

The only people that will benefit from a buy of C27's is the Yanks... Not the correct buy for SAAF and surely not for MPA duties.
Reason- Its much to expensive and its American and therefore always comes with strings attached....

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