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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2011, 22:41 
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Monique wrote:
Ja, I hear you. But when the computer says no? :twisted:


I think as Roger the Dodger so succinctly put it "... then landing is achieved by parachute". :p

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 03:48 
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When have the Yanks ever won a war?

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 13:03 
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Tally-ho wrote:
Look at the millions being spent on BVRAAM and the ability to kill your opponent before he knows what's hit him - Fact. Some fighter jets don't even have canon these days. .


INCORRECT
. You know what , i can get away with saying "you are a liar !" but i m not going to prove it to you. Kid ! All latest offerings (so called BVR jets) except Gripen D have cannons.

Sukhoi 35 1 × 30 mm GSh-30 internal cannon with 150 rounds)
Sukhoi 30 1 × GSh-30-1 gun (30 mm calibre, 150 rounds)
Mig 35 1× 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon, 150 rounds
Dassult Rafale 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) GIAT 30/719B cannon with 125 rounds
Euro fighter 1 × 27 mm Mauser BK-27 Revolver cannon with 150 rounds
F22 raptor 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) M61A2 Vulcan 6-barreled gatling cannon in starboard wing root, 480 rounds
F35 lightning 1 × General Dynamics GAU-22/A Equalizer 25 mm (0.984 in) 4-barreled gatling cannon
J10 1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon
J17-thunder 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon
Gripen A/C 1 × 27 mm Mauser BK-27 Revolver cannon with 120 rounds
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 14:15 
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Balerit Quote

"When have the Yanks ever won a war?"

I am no fan of the USof A but give them their due.

Well on the funny side the American Civil War

For starters the American war of Independence, fought the British again in 1812 here the war ended with the Ghent PeaceTreaty, each side gave as good as they took. The American national Anthem comes from this conflict

Mexico in 1846 ten years after the Texas Alamo etc in 1836
Spain, in Cuba and Philippines 1898.

For another try WWII, without the USA's assistance the British and USSR had a series problem.
D-Day was not possible without the US, logistically and man power. The Yanks made the break out in Normandy, first across the Rhine as well. Montgomery's plan for D-Day Operation Overlord went to pot once the German were ecountered. Caen was supposed to have been captured on the first day, well it fell only two months later in August.
The Battle of El Alamein was won using US weaponry mainly the Sherman tank, British tanks then in service were totally "*rap" being unreliable, under powered and under gunned.
The Matilda earlier in the African conflict was okay against Italian "mobile coffins" but as it could only fire AP rounds and not HE High exploaive it battled to deal with German PAK (PanzerAbwerkanon - anti-tank guns) its replacements were total rubbish. The British did not take one British made tank to Italy, all were left in North Africa.

The Yanks produced around 50,000 Shermans alone, Germanys total Panzer production for the whole war is around 30,000 (only around 1,500 Tigers, 6,000 Panters, 550 King Tigers were produced, figures are rounded) not included are Sturmgeschutz, Panzerjager and such chassis. So add in the Grant/Lee, M-3 Stuart, Pershing, Chaffe, Wolverine, M-10, a number of this list were used by us and the British.

The Yanks did in Imperial Japanese Navy by themselves, the American submarine fleet recked havoc with the Japanese merchant fleet. Burma was a side show compared to the Marines Island hopping campaign.

Just have alook at where most of the SAAF aircraft for WWII came from, the USA on Lend Lease

Harvards, Maryland, Boston, B-24 Liberator, B-26 Marauder, P-40's (Kittyhawk & Tomahawk), P-51 Mustang, C-47 to name a few.

Without USA assistance in the North Atlantic the U-Boots would have won as the British could not replace there lost merchamant fast enough, Liberty ships helped out there. The USN lost their first ship to a U-Boot before Pearl harbour as they were escorting convoys as far as Iceland. Without the B-24 to cover the air gap in the mid atlantic more pressure would have been placed on the escorts.

The amount of weaponary (tanks; aircraft, small arms etc) and more importantly were the trucks given to the USSR is staggering. Without these trucks the USSR would have had a logistical nightmare to bring supplies forward.

The only thing the German Infantry feared on the ground was the US Army Artillery, it was far more accurate than anything the other Allies had.
Read books on Germans who served on both fronts, they to a man state fighting the US was like fighting a machine it just grinds you down.

The US Army did not loose one battle in Vietnam, please correct me here if I am wrong with Battle and date. They signed a peace treaty and left in 1973, South Vietnam fell in 1975 to the North.
After the Tiet offensive the VC was a spent force and the NVA were the main fighting force. The US military was not allowed to bring their full might against the NVA. When ever they bombed them well and good, the NVA retreated to Paris and the bombing stopped for the duration of the talks. A good ploy on their part.

The US Army lost more troops in Korea than during their involvement in the Vietnam conflict, which was twice the length of their involment in the Korean conflict.


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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 14:47 
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skyhawk77 wrote:
Tally-ho wrote:
Look at the millions being spent on BVRAAM and the ability to kill your opponent before he knows what's hit him - Fact. Some fighter jets don't even have canon these days. .
All latest offerings (so called BVR jets) except Gripen D have cannons.

And there you prove my point - thank you!

I also used the word "SOME".

There was a long discussion in the RAF about cannon or no cannon on their Eurofighter Typhoon (F2 variant) and for the sake of ergonomics it was decided to have them.
However, if the world's oldest Air Force ( =D> ) is thinking about cannon or no cannon, the writing may just be on the wall ....

As a parting ta-ta Skyhawk:-
The future is missiles, cannons may become a tourist attraction, like the Zimbabwean Ruins.

Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 14:56 
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This is quite a funny conversation. The last air force to go to war without a cannon on their fighters (early model F4 Phantom) got their butts kicked by "inferior" opposition. In the early stages of the Vietnam war the Americans believed their Sidewinders would wipe out North Vietnam's "primitive" MiG 17s. Well they were soon squealing for a gun to be added to the Phantom.


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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 15:00 
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The past must not be forgotten,

The USAF went to war without a gun armament and paid the price for it, one of the reason was the Rules of Engagement (RoE) which stated that the pilot had to ID his target before firing, due to some blue on blue incidents. With the high closing speeds and the gun armed opposition MiG-21 which then gave the F-4 some head on cannon shells and just carried on by.

The F-4 was also not designed as a dogfighter

Now with the Wars being fought at the moment could this not happen again with the RoE being very PC.
Okay modern missiles can be fired head on not like the 1960-70's ones but you still end up with the bogey closer than you want.

Learn from history and do not repeat past mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 15:13 
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Thank you RtD and W40.... for your balanced input.

For the record, even the SAAF had problems with their Matra 550 against Angolan / Cuban Migs and Johan Rankin resorted to cannons to achieve results.

However, if I may, the days of cavalry, swords, and pistols at dawn are long gone. Sad but true.

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 15:24 
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The IAF who in my opinion are the leaders in aerial fighter to fighter conflict prefer to use gun fire to missiles.

This reminds me that people keep having being saying the day of the tank is over well they having been saying it for the last thirty years now, they must be hoarse, but it is still out there. To protect itself it is strapping on more senses etc.

There is nothing like 30 tons of steel to ruin a PBI mans day, even the sound of a tank is enough make veterans nervey.


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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 18:29 
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H1017412 wrote:
Monique wrote:
Ja, I hear you. But when the computer says no? :twisted:


I think as Roger the Dodger so succinctly put it "... then landing is achieved by parachute". :p


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 18:40 
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F22 now selling at $200 million a piece and costs almost $50k per flight hour.

TU50 will go for $100 million each.

Then...

Gripen NG $50 million each and at about $2500 an hour...

My four Gripens see your F22 and raise you 5 hours in the air per aircraft to your 1 in the air for an hour...

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 19:07 
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:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 19:12 
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On a serious note, if you read Dickie Lords books on the border war, it is amazing how easy it was for our pilots to dodge missiles, okay I know they were ground to air but in the end it was good old canon fire that did the trick. These beyond visual range missiles I think are untried and in war conditions nothing seems to work properly and I wonder if we will ever get to see them in action?

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 20:01 
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The horse was followed by the car ....
A boat that could sail under water arrived in the WW1 and people thought it madness ....
Air combat started with pilots taking pot-shots at each other with revolvers, now pilots in combat don't even see each other ....

Do I need to go on? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sukhoi videos
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 20:12 
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Monique wrote:
F22 now selling at $200 million a piece and costs almost $50k per flight hour.
TU50 will go for $100 million each.
Then...
Gripen NG $50 million each and at about $2500 an hour...
My four Gripens see your F22 and raise you 5 hours in the air per aircraft to your 1 in the air for an hour...

Ja, I hear you too! :)

BUT, the Gripens won't even reach combat speed and altitude when superior technology deletes their prescence from the HUD in front of the F-22 driver. :shock:

Maybe, we should go back to topic watching Sukhoi videos :lol:

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