The SAAF Forum

http://www.volksblad.com/nuus/2014-02-2 ... -nuwe-tuie
It seems the Badgers will cost R65 000 000 each. And the price will probably increase.

Why will price increas. For those that are not boer
http://gosouthonline.co.za/drastic-esca ... questions/

and lets qoute



Even at that price it still not that bad for what you get. I mean it can withstand 30mm fire, shruge of mines and has a great gun.

that only 2 million USD more than a stryker ICV that is with out spares, less Armour, and a MG. The badger is still a good deal.

there he goes again......

WHEN have you ever seen one sob?.........have you crewed one?......looking at stats and pictures is one thing.....really understanding something is different than looking at the stats....

I am an old Armour guy...I refrain from comments about navy stuff, because I know Sweet F.A. about them....never sailed on one nor crewed one....I do now that those little cabin cruiser looking things look almost identical to the private boats that the rich people cruise around in Vancouver and Toronto and such......

It is simply another option in about 200 options from all around the world.....

you do realize that is over 6.5 MILLION USD's PER vehicle right?......x 200 vehicles?.....

When you ever seen a rooikat?

i have seen and been in a badger and spoken to some of the people working on it at AAD

MM you saying it has more Armour and that is not a MG on the roof?

i read a lot on the subject and there are a few ex army guys in the navy that i get the little details from.

Of those 200 opstions non meet the requments of the SANDF.

yes, your point is, the stryker costs 4.9million USD,

I haven't seen a Rooikat,

Then again I would gather that alot of people , even in the SANDF, don;t see the Rooikat...with what only 30 - 40 of them used........

SA is frecking BROKE...your President has spent HOW much Tax dollars to fix up his house?...something like $25 Million usd...and your sitting there saying how great a deal it is?.......YES SANDF needs vehicles..but really 200?...you don;t have that many troops to fill them!......even if they fund it and they come in...how many will go to "storage" with the G6's and G7's and the Rooikats?...likely MOST of them....cause according to you...you only need 30 - 40 of them to
stay trained"........how many projects that really need doing get dumped?.....where are the MBT's...not bought any, dropped the TTD, haven;'t built any yourselves.....YES SA is still using 30 plus tear old Ratels..they need to be replaced....but really, out of the what 200 ratels...how many are USED?.....

I do however have enough actual experience IN armour to form a judgement......you seem to hate the LAV's / Strykers sooo much.......yet I know you have never crewed one.....you know Sweet F.A. about their actual downfalls...you just read and regergitate others opinions of them......and talking to a "guy" or sitting in a stationary display isn;t the same

in fact just to put your mind at ease...as I said about 100 times yesterday..I LIKE what I have seen, observed, read of the Rooikat....I disagree on it's tasking...I disagree that they are stored away for NOTHING.......they will be useless before they get pulled out......

anyway....what the f%#k ever....you never accept anyone elses views, you blindly battle on in a one man fight ignore facts ...just what ever.......

"puddle Pirate".........

They get around, the reserve force unit in cape town bring them out often

I said it is not bad for what you get, do not put words in my mouth. And yes it is a good deal.

Non will go in to storage, these will replace the 200 active duty ratels.

The tank project gave us the olfant MK2

we over 1000 ratels of them around 200 in active duty, note we have 2 active duty mech infantry battalions, each use around 85 IFV some time bumped up to 100.

Has i have said before i followed the progress of the polish wolfriens in Afghanistan to get to my opinion on the badger.

what facts? the facts are your opinion, that is all. i mean i am not the one putting words in to other peoples mouths.

Guys, we should all know you can't work out a per-unit cost just by dividing the contract cost by the number of vehicles. A contract of this sort includes support in the form of training, spares, maintenance, ammunition and all kinds of add-ons to support the fleet over the next few decades. It also takes into account inflation over the ten year production span.

In fact, with inflation the R8 billion spent in 2007 is actually over R11 billion now. We sometimes underestimate just how high our rate is.

Typically, for anything half-way high-tech the support costs typically cost anywhere from 40% to 60% of the total contract value. Assuming this is true in this case we can expect the actual base unit costs of the Badgers to be about R 6.1 billion to R9.2 billion. So the actual unit cost could be anywhere from R25 million to R40 million. Bear in mind that's an average, of course, as the specialised vehicles like the Missile Variant and Command Variant are a lot more expensive than the standard Section Variant.

This compares pretty favourably with the cost of similar IFVs of the same capability level. The estimated unit price for others who have bought the Patria AMV recently is around € 2.8 million, or R41 million, a LAV III purchase a few years ago worked out to about $ 2.9 million or about R32 million and a Stryker costs at least $ 1.8 million or R19 million despite the massive numbers procured.

Assuming the Hoefyster programme will cost R15.4 billion from initial development through to full-scale production I think it's a reasonable price.

Daren, like most of the times, you make a valid point indeed.
BUT
I can't help but wonder, what the cost of a locally developed vehicle would have been. Thinking of the RG41 or the Mbombe? Or maybe even the Iklwa (Ratel-improved)

_________________
Da-di-da-da-da

Thanks.

That's a good question, though it's difficult to say without having a breakdown of exactly how much of the Hoefyster cost has gone into each part of the project, such as the turret, the weapons, the on-board computers, etc.

I know when Hoefyster was initially conceived in the 1990s the intention was to use a locally-designed vehicle. To that a bunch of manufacturers submitted full-scale proposals which were put through some limited trials around 1997-1998. All the prototypes are now at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein.

As I've heard it, at some point the DoD, SANDF and Armscor project team decided that with the big budget cuts of the late '90s there was unlikely to be enough funding to develop an entirely new vehicle from scratch, especially as many skills in local industry had been lost, and so the RFP changed to require as a base a vehicle that was already in service elsewhere in the world. Other stories I've heard are that Patria sent down an AMV as an unsolicited trial contestant and impressed the project team or, of course, that shenanigans were involved. I don't know enough to say for sure why the decisions were made.

Vehicles like the Mbombe and RG41 are interesting primarily because they appear to be highly-capable AFVs/IFVs developed entirely with private investment. Both were introduced only after the Hoefyster development contract was signed, to my knowledge, otherwise maybe they could have been contenders. Unfortunately, as is usual with Armscor, so little public information is available that we have to rely on speculation and guess work on this sort of thing.

Whatever the case, the Badgers are good vehicles and the weapons suites being adopted, such as the GI-30 30mm gun, M10 60mm automatic mortar and Ingwe anti-tank guided missiles are all top-notch. I think they'll serve the SANDF well. My only concern is that the DoD currently lacks the funding to buy enough to properly equip all the units that need Ratel replacements, so either we must hope that future budgets will allow for follow-on production to fill those gaps or the Army should begin looking seriously at cheaper options like BAE Systems OMC's Iklwa upgrade of the Ratel for those roles.

Asking from complete ignorance here, but what would an Iklwa upgrade cost by comparison? How do they stack up when we compare capability and cost of both vehicles?

Not sure of the exact figure, but I seem to recall a figure of about R10 million being estimated for the iKlwa.

In terms of capability it seems less capable than the Badger, not least because there has been no work done to integrate Denel's MCV turrets for the Badger onto it. But it's a significant upgrade over the Ratel in every way, as far as I can tell.

The Iklwa is still limited in the mobility department because it is only a 6x6. The weight of the vehicle has increased substantially because of the added armour. So, the weight per wheel is much higher. The new engine and upgraded gearbox will help to keep the power to weight in check and a bigger fuel tank would have improved range as the new engine is much more efficient. AFAIK the new turrets can fit on the Iklwa so very little to do there.

All said and done, I would have preferred the RG41 as the replacement for the Ratel, but with the Badger already there, I would think the Iklwa is the logical choice for the Ratel replacement in order to make up the numbers.

With the proposed development teams left high and dry, there was a sudden switch to the Finnish design proposal, that still baffles the mind. So, BAE/Alvis/OMC went on their own and came up with their final design in the RG41. If they could have done that on their own, with very little funds, it begs the question why money would have been the reason for the SANDF/Krygkor to go to a foreign design, given OMC/SA's expertise in this field. It really hurt our industry and was basically a slap in the face. To me, this was a bigger mess-up than the other arms deal scandal. I'm still of the opinion that the Badger vehicle buy was payback for earlier support from Finland. But as there obviously is no proof for this, I will have to suck up my disdain for this dubious decision and just go on
My opinion, on the high price of the deal, is because of the small numbers, and that is because of the price of the vehicle platform, but with no facts available, I can only speculate.

_________________
Da-di-da-da-da

The Patria purchase is payback for the Finnish Navy buying Umkhonto.

you want cost over runs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cORX4hdHEsg


300 billion USD that beyond crazy

I'm not sure if Badger will offer the same degree of visibility as Ratel? Although the silhouette of Ratel was large - the driving position up high afforded the driver / commander had a good view of their surroundings, particularly in areas with tall grass for example.

_________________
A plan is simply a basis for change.