The SAAF Forum

are we at war(DRC)
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Author:  gripen1 [ 19 May 2013, 12:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

What type of infantry is 6 SAI? I heard they will also be sending some of our Artillery over there too. Cannot confirm though. The proposed light weight Artillery proposed for the SANDF would have come in handy now. Will be interesting to see what equipment the SANDF is going to haul over there.

Author:  Foxtrot [ 19 May 2013, 14:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

I heard G5s were going.

Author:  sob [ 19 May 2013, 16:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

Foxtrot wrote:
I heard G5s were going.

From who?

Author:  boertjie [ 19 May 2013, 16:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

Personally I think South Africa is getting themselves into something that they can not control. :-x
They are AGAIN committing to small a force without suitable equipment. [-X
I have my doubts about our ability to support the troops over there. [-X
I wonder what the powers that be are sniffing :wink: if they think any rebel force will be p&&ing their pants, hearing we are sending two attack helicopters with a small helicopter support force. Really funny, only I'm not laughing as people might die! :smt011
I'm convinced, and are yet to be proven wrong, that the "pres" want so badly to dance with the "big boys", but he does not have the manpower or the equipment to his disposal to do just that. [-X
These guys do not understand what it takes to get involved in these kind of ops. It takes a lot of money, which we don't have, and a lot of time. To do what the UN mandate dictates, takes a force with modern equipment, with their full capability available (Rooivalk without Makopa) and troops that have been trained over many years (not a few months) and proper back-up and support over a LONG period of time.
As far as I'm concerned, we are biting off more than we can chew. :roll:
If the SANDF does not commit at least 2000 troops, with at least six Rooivalk Helo's, eight to twelfth Oryx'e and some (six?) LUH's, complimented by artillary, mechanized infantry (Ratels) and some heavier stuff like a couple of Rooikat fire support or Ratel 90's, then I see some real problems coming our way. JMHO [-X
But maybe I'm jumping the gun here. Maybe we should clarify what exactly the force will consist off and what equipment will be taken, before I make these comments, but I've made them as can already see where this is going. I so hope I'm wrong!!!

Author:  gripen1 [ 19 May 2013, 17:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

@ Boertjie

Could not agree more. The SANDF is a shadow of it's former self compared to when I did my NS in the SADF.

Author:  Roger the Dodger [ 19 May 2013, 18:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

What we know so far:

6SAI is a light infantry air-mobile batallion. That means they need to have an entire helicopter squadron fully comitted exclusively to them, two Oryx would be just enough for only the batallion HQ staff or one platoon - that is all. Light infantry, and particularly the airborne variety, have no armour or any weapons larger than can be carried by people moving on foot. They left a significant number of their total stock of light air-transportable vehicles in Bangui.
Two Rooivalk, without missiles, only 20mm gun and 70mm rockets are at a stretch going to be able to support maybe one company.

If G5s will be used they could be a very valuable force multiplier as events in 1987-88 showed - provided they are used correctly and are properly supported and supplied with adequate quantities of consumables.The 120mm mortars are useful too but their range is very short, requiring them to deploy much further forward than artillery normally does. If there are no G5s going I can see the Rooivalk and Hawks being kept very busy as "substitute" artillery!

This campaign, given the nature of the terrain and the opposition will necessarily rely very heavily on air support of all kinds - Oryx and (heaven help them!) A109 helicopters for moving people and materiel around short distances, C130s to bring supplies and people, C47s and C209s for moving people and supplies over longer distances, Rooivalk and Hawks for CAS and interdiction strikes, and then somewhere various aircraft need to fit in recconnaisance missions too. There we are fortunate because Rooivalk, Hawk, Caravan and Gripen are all equipped for taking pics of interesting stuff.

Whoever said they only need two Oryx and Rooivalk for air support really needs to find a better dealer, because the shit they're smoking is vrot!

An Oryx can carry 20 troops with full kit - so a full batallion (1000 troops) movement would take those two choppers 25 flights each!

Short answer: For an op such as this we need to magically resurrect the old 61 Mech, trying to do it with airmobile light infantry is madness!

What do we know about our allies' units?
Maybe our guys can hitchhike on the Tanzanian transports!

Author:  Balerit [ 19 May 2013, 22:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

Are you forgetting what Neill Ellis did with one chopper? Once a battalion is deployed you will always have troops permanently in 'base' so maybe there won't be that many to move around, I think they know how to run a show, they've been deployed in these parts for a long time now.

Author:  jeffreynic [ 20 May 2013, 02:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

I agree with Boertjie and R the D.
Do your home work right, and no short cuts.
Or has SA turned to the Soviet style, troops can be used as cannon fodder.

Balerit wrote:
Are you forgetting what Neill Ellis did with one chopper?

What Mr Ellis faced, compared to what we face in DRC, were they as well trained? Were they as well equipped? Were they as large a force we now face?

Author:  Darren [ 20 May 2013, 11:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

To all the above, add the problem of co-ordination between the South African, Tanzanian and Malawian battalions. Although under SADC auspices there has been some joint training, especially at the command level, each country has its own C2 setup, own radios, own equipment, own doctrine, etc. In effect this will leave each national battalion operating more or less on its own, with movements co-ordinated at HQ.

So yes, I agree that this is an enormously risky operation which has highlighted the SANDF's lack of a 61-Mech-style unit. This is why the Defence Review speaks about re-creating that kind of capability, but that's way too far in the future.

In all, I don't like it. Rather than possessing overwhelming superiority in numbers, fire support, etc, our troops will all too often find themselves at a tactical disadvantage to an enemy that knows the terrain intimately. Once again the politicians have placed our soldiers into a deadly and dangerous situation.

I don't believe the SANDF has any real option here and I think they'll do whatever is possible to ensure the troops are supported within the realities of the budget. They're also hoping that Treasury will allocate contingency funding to cover the costs and potentially allow more equipment to be sent. I only hope things turn out ok.

Author:  Tally-ho [ 20 May 2013, 12:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

Nellis did good work in Sierra Leone but he was one man with one helicopter and very limited resources, the final cessation of hostilities and the enduring peace since September 2000, was brought about by British military force under Operation Palliser. ... n_Palliser

Anyone thinking a cash strapped SA involvement on the cheap, with other untried foreign forces, will bring stability to the DRC is in denial of the facts.

I too agree with Boertjie. RtD, jeffreynic and Darren.

Author:  koffiepit [ 20 May 2013, 18:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

Balerit wrote:
Are you forgetting what Neill Ellis did with one chopper? Once a battalion is deployed you will always have troops permanently in 'base' so maybe there won't be that many to move around, I think they know how to run a show, they've been deployed in these parts for a long time now.

Yes, almost as much as Ruddel did in his Ju-87, I guess (I read the book about Ellis but it only says that he shot at the enemy; I can't recall the book saying how it impacted the outcome of the conflicts in which Ellis involved himself.) Is it enough to stem the tide?

Author:  koos kakebeen [ 21 May 2013, 19:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

Article in Die Volksblad "Rebelle ruk op in DRK"

To get my brownie points back from Rodger the Dodger here is the link ... -op-in-drk :lol:

It seems the SADF has only about 250 men deployed near Goma ,the rest are back in the RSA.M 23 rebels have advanced to positions only about 1km from the SA positions. The SA forces are equiped with Mambas And Casspirs.Permission has been granted to send 2 Rooivalk and 2 Oryx helicopters to join the 2 Oryx allready there.The Un has appointed a Brazillian lt.genl. Carlos Alberto dos Santos Cruz as the comander of UN forces in the DRC.

Author:  boertjie [ 21 May 2013, 20:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

250 men four (4) Oryx'e and two (2) Rooivalke #-o
Does not look good for SANDF :-x :roll:

Author:  Darren [ 21 May 2013, 21:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

Possibly also a company of paratroopers, plus Indian and other UN troops stationed further up the road with BMP-2 IFVs and other armoured vehicles. That's in addition to the FARDC troops sent to reinforce the area.

The SANDF also recently fortified its base in Munigi. I would not get too worried just yet, though caution is warranted.

Author:  Roger the Dodger [ 21 May 2013, 21:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: are we at war(DRC)

The article talks of a company of SA peacekeepers in the base and another company of Paras "in the hills" nearby.

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