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I all ways thought the scoped R1 was the DMR.

And a SMG will get you killed in a peace keeping mission. The other side has AK's and machine guns.


Has a mortar in a squad. Yes they are light enough but just how many rounds could you have in a infantry squad. Any case the 40mm MGL covers the pocket artillery. the 6omm mortar can be part of a support squad. I do think we should bring the AT (RPG) down to a squad level and have a support squad for the ATGM.


The only guys who should have SMG are heavy vehicle and air craft crew.

Hi Guys
Why a mortar in a squad???
One mortar in a platoon in the HQ section should surely be enough!
We're talking about a "normal" set-up for the "normal" infantry motorized/mech squad.
I agree about to many different weapons in a section but I proposed only two types. I still stand by my proposal and by the fact that a 7.62 is a must. The 5,56's is not good for penetration and longer distances. The Yanks and Brits found that they needed this in the environment of Afgan. I'm sure it is better to have the MG in 7.62 format. Normal troops/rfl-men with R4's (5,56) and the DMR with scoped 7.62; same as MG. The other spes guys should have R4/R5 as standard.
Someone talked about carrying a R4 and a patmor as being to much to ask. I do not agree, as this was what I had to carry during all my time as the mortarist in the mech-platoon (Hq-section patmor). You just cope with it, that's all. I did very long foot patrols (10-12km per day) with my patmor, R4 and 4x30rnd mags, full webbing, 2x1l water bottles and ratpacs for the day and, just to round it of, a bag with 4x60mil mortars. I'm a relatively small guy of 1.69m and weighed around 77kg at the time. If I could cope with this then most people should be able to.
But then again, I did my service in the old SADF and did what I had to do to serve my country at the time. We surely were raised differently in those days. I did my basics in '84.

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For a long time British armies platoon consisted of 3 sections of 10 men and a small HQ. if I recall it were true from at least the beginning of WW2 until Desert storm.Presently a section has only 8 men.This means that a battalion loses about 20% of its infantry. I think that it is to cut costs.Not only have the Brits less battalions than in the past they are weaker than they used to be. I have a feeling that the support element has not been cut by the same % leaving a battalion with more fat and less muscle. Any thoughts.

Really interesting article about platoon manoeuvres and organisation - http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o ... Itemid=112

Interesting Roger, will read it at the midnight hour though. Our platoon sections used to have an LMG each.

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Having served as a rifleman during the pre-election time I was exposed to a certain extent to urban deployment. Having said that, our platoon acted as cover for the Unit 19 SAPS doing door to door and road-blocks.

Our section consisted of:

L/CPL with R4
LMG gunner
LMG 2 support with R4
Patmor with R4
Signaller with R4
Scout 1 with R4 (and night vision capability)
Scout 2 with R4
R/man with R4
R/man with R4
R/man with R4

I would change R4 with more suitable R5 for township areas, but keep the standard R4 for open plains, bush or grasslands. Patmor and LMG/SS77 will be standard and non-negotiable. For more medium distance penetration I might opt for the RPG in stead of the patmor.

Relying on squad support for heavy fire is almost impossible in urban areas. Angle of attack, obstacles and in most similar cases civilian injury risk is just some of the issues to take into account when unleashing squad level fire support.

In those days we relied on close formations and hand signals. We deployed quite often at night and developed audible signals for low visibility situations. Nowadays all staff will be linked via short distance comms.

Haven't played wargames in a while, though, and are not very familiar with new tech and weapons developments.

Ian that sounds about right, good mobility there. Ja, it would be nice to see some of the new equipment. I tried to get my cousin on here to expound his theories a bit but to no avail. He would actually have the leader and maybe signaler carrying sawn off shot guns to give more of a covering fire in CQB situations.

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An RPG is a short range direct fire weapon, a mortar is longer ranged and indirect fire.
A 40mm GL is a useful alternative in some environments.

Does SANDF have a variety of warheads for the RPG (HE, FRAG, etc) or only the "standard" AT version?

BTW have you seen the latest German "Gladius Soldier System"? Each soldier is connected to the squad's computer network, a short range radio system, sensors, gps, etc.

See http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/inde ... e=0&lang=3

A shotgun makes far better sense in an urban "door to door" environment than a MG. Particularly in a "peacekeeping" situation - shotgun pellets don't penetrate three or four shacks like 7.62 bullets could.

A mortar in a built up environment makes no sense at all imho! I'd prefer a 40mm GL instead if a "heavy" weapon is needed - taking out snipers in an upper story window or on a roof is a good job for a 40mm.

Incl thermobaric.etc.Interesting reading tho off-topic.

http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... fquCBC9jyw

http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... kwU-CJUOXQ

http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... IrWPHRvguw

Even in a bush environment a shotgun will keep heads down while you outflank an enemy, you can put more projectiles in a given area:

000 Buckshot is .36" in diameter and weighs about 71 grains per pellet. In a 3" shell you have 9 to 10 pellets and in a 2 3/4" shell you usually have 8 pellets. Velocity is around 1325 fps (feet per second) for the 2 3/4" shells and a bit slower for the 3" shells.

00 Buckshot is .33" in diameter and weighs about 60.5 grains each. 3" shells hold approximately 15 pellets and 2 3/4" shells hold around 12 pellets. Velocity is approximately 1250 fps.

#1 Buckshot is .30" in diameter and weighs 40.5 grains each. There are approximately 24 pellets in the 3" shells, and the pellet count varies from 16 to 20 in the 2 3/4" shells. Velocity also varies from 1075 fps for the 3" shells to 1250 fps for the 2 3/4" shells.

In considering the other loads, you have only 8 or 10 of the 000 Buckshot pellets, but they weigh 71 grains each, that is the same weight as a .32 ACP's FMJ bullet, and it is moving faster than a .32 ACP throws its single bullet. With the combination of weight and velocity, 000 Buckshot will penetrate any drywall and any non-masonry exterior wall with relative ease, and thereby possibly endangering your neighbors. Being only 10 grains lighter, 00 buckshot shares many of the same drawbacks as 000 Buck (low pellet count and high penetration).

http://stealthsurvival.blogspot.com/200 ... fense.html

With the worlds population increasing so rapidly space is becoming a premium and the days of fighting wars in wide open spaces is long gone, the urban environment is the new battleground.

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Now Roger this is what i wanted to see and hear about in my thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4246

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Look, I'm not a gunslinger/infantry type,but surely smg/shotgun and pistol type weapons have their place,but are all very short range/limited utility weapons and propably close to useless if you're opponent is wearing bp vests,or limited effectiveness beyond 20-30m's?

That's where the shotgun comes into it's own, a bp vest won't help much when you lose your arms and legs
It's all about keeping the enemies head down, you can put more lead in the air than a rifle. Also good for opening doors etc (breaching).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAG-7

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Reads like a comedy of errors, govt chasing shadows.

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