The SAAF Forum

I'll get back to you guys on this, I first want to confirm with my cousin as he and I have discussed this at length but bullpup rifles and shot guns were part of the discussion. We were very hampered with the R1 in the bush and I've heard even the R4 is too long for what i think will be a future scenario and you mentioned it: urban warfare.

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In the Defence Review topic I raised the issue of the R4 being outdated, in fact all of the infantryman's current standard kit could do with a thorough evaluation.

There is already a project whereby the R4 is updated. Nothing wrong with the rifle's basic components and that is therefore kept as is. The peripherals on the rifle is changing though. I should have a photo somewhere.....will look in that trommel.....
When it comes to the other kit like webbing and so on, I have to say that the kit used since 1984/85 is quite good and definitely one of the best out there. It does have some issues with it and I think that various improvements can be made to both the "Chest" webbing and the main battle webbing. If I'm correct, this is being looked at at the moment and we might see some changes in the not to distant future....

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Great stuff Boertjie I would really like to see the updated R4. I hope it's not heavier than the original as it's already far heavier than the current generation of rifles.
BTW, what do the current ratpacks look like? I last faced one on the late 1980s. Have we moved to smaller, lighter "MRE" type ratpacks yet?

I bumped into my cousin today but we spent the day toasting the boys at Cassinga and ended up talking about the old days.

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In the New Zealand army a section (depending on the size of the platoon) typically consists of:

Section leader (CPL) - Rifle (F88 AUSTEYR)
Section 2IC (L/CPL) - LMG (C9 [Canadian produced FN MINIMI])
Medic - Rifle (F88 AUSTEYR)
Signaller - Rifle (F88 AUSTEYR + M18 CDF)
Grenadier - Rifle (F88 AUSTEYR + M203 40mm launcher)
Grenadier - Rifle (F88 AUSTEYR + M203 40mm launcher)
Rifleman - Rifle (F88 AUSTEYR)
Rifleman - Rifle (F88 AUSTEYR)

I see on wiki's page regarding sections that the Australian makeup has the addition of a "scout" with enhanced optics. Not sure if the NZDF follow suit in this regard as I've been out for 4 years but wouldn't surprise me if they do.

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Hi Boertjie and Balerit,

What you two described above is too complicated.

I spent a lot of my career in logistics to know when an operation is treading on risky ground.

The NZ [ and Australia ] way seems nearer to logic, but still too Uncle Sam dependent.

A fighting section should not have more than 3 types of weapons - where specialist weapons
such as mortars be supported by light SMG's. [Also medics.]

And hey ! This is 2012 ! - No further need for radio/comms specialists - even a cell phone
makes them out dated.

So what am I talking about ?

A standard rifle - R4 type of thing [ although I personally prefer bigger calibers], a 60mm mortar,
but the 20x42 makes sense as an alternative - and any SMG of the day.
[ SMG's for officers, medics and mortar men ].

At battalion level there could be machinegun unites to be deployed as the battle unfolds.

@100ponder - I have to disagree, the SMG has no place in a standard infantry section.
Such light weapons are for police work - or a house-raid by special forces. (Though SEAL Team 6 most probably used their standard HK416 carbines)
A carbine version (R5) of the standard rifle (R4) is a far better choice if a more compact weapon is necessary.
Your section lacks a light machine gun, which imho is an essential item.

My opinion:

The section's one fire team has an LMG and the other one selects one of: 60mm patrol mortar, AT rocket (RPG7 or similar), 40mm grenade launcher, etc. or even another LMG, depending on the environment and opposition.

On the topic of LMGs - the FN-MAG is really a GPMG, quite a lot heavier than modern LMGs.
Something like the 5.56 version of the SS77 is a LMG and a better choice for a section weapon. 5.56 ammo is also far lighter than 7.62. It also simplifies logistics if the section needs only one type of ammo for rifles and LMG.

The 7.62 GPMGs could be shifted "upward" and deployed as platoon support weapons.
Of course if the environment requires the heavier hitting power of the 7.62 round (thick bush etc) then the section will just have to use the heavier GPMG.

Hi Roger,

When out in the battlefield - they don't have
a supermarket of weapons to select from - so R4 or similar
must be pressed into GPMG service for the short while a
contact lasts.

After-all, RSA should not get involved in a war - piece keeping
will be more "police" like - so, SMG will not really be out of place.

How do you know a contact will only last a "short while"? The environment our army have to work in these days is not like "die grens" of the old days where the "terrs" always ran away after 20 seconds of shooting.



The job might be "police like" but the working environment is only occasionally a built-up urban area. It's nothing like "Konstabel Koos" on patrol in the suburbs or townships with his pistol on his hip and a shotgun in the bakkie.

A SMG is useless outside of urban environments - it's 9mm round can't be relied on to be effective much further than 20-30m.
A carbine in the standard rifle calibre is far better and - as you insist so much on logistics - SMGs introduce an extra ammo type that has to be supplied.
In the forest of the DRC or the open desert of Darfur the rebels have AKs and RPGs - they can hurt you long before your 9mil popgun is within range.

You cannot equip and train an army based on only the paramaters of the job they happen to be doing "right now". Most weapon systems have a useful life of 20 - 40 years and building up a competent conventional combat capability takes many years. How do you know SA won't be involved in a conventional war by 2030?

It seems to me you are engaging in "last war thinking" where you imagine future combat scenarios will be basically the same as the previous war.

See how long it took the Americans to figure out how to deal with the Taliban - they started the Afghan campaign the according to the recipe of "Desert Storm" with bombing and tanks charging all over the place. But they didn't keep in mind that Afghanistan is a totally different environment than the urbanised, technologically based society of Saddam's Iraq. So ten years later they ended up having to send patrols into the mountains to finish off the Taliban and AQ "bittereinders", by helicopter, MRAP, and when it got too steep for the MRAPs or too high for the choppers - on foot and pack mule.

Ja Roger, what you say make sense - I was just thinking that it will be asking too much that some section members should carry two "full size" weapons [infantry rifle and mortar ] - therefore I recommended a lighter arm for only the mortar element and then doing away with a GPMG. [ It will mean carrying extra ammo for the troopers detailed to assume GPMG rolls with standard infantry arms.]

This makes me think that a good old R1 with rifle grenades might just be the thing ! [ Thinking old school again - but what will be the alternatives ? ]

Actually an R1 that has been tuned by an expert gunsmith to be as accurate as possible could be suitable for the "designated marksman" role. Some of the US forces use their old M14 for that purpose

And the Germans use their old G3s.

I all ways thought the scoped R1 was the DMR.

And a SMG will get you killed in a peace keeping mission. The other side has AK's and machine guns.


Has a mortar in a squad. Yes they are light enough but just how many rounds could you have in a infantry squad. Any case the 40mm MGL covers the pocket artillery. the 6omm mortar can be part of a support squad. I do think we should bring the AT (RPG) down to a squad level and have a support squad for the ATGM.


The only guys who should have SMG are heavy vehicle and air craft crew.

I all ways thought the scoped R1 was the DMR.

And a SMG will get you killed in a peace keeping mission. The other side has AK's and machine guns.


Has a mortar in a squad. Yes they are light enough but just how many rounds could you have in a infantry squad. Any case the 40mm MGL covers the pocket artillery. the 6omm mortar can be part of a support squad. I do think we should bring the AT (RPG) down to a squad level and have a support squad for the ATGM.


The only guys who should have SMG are heavy vehicle and air craft crew.