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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2020, 19:57 
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OK, don't have my book with me.

Here's an interesting pic of a Mirage 5 vs Kfir - see the distinct difference in fuselage sizes at the rear end.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Colombi ... AUr0Lo8%3D

Still not convinced the Cs were from Kfirs...research needs to be continued....


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2020, 20:30 
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Location: VILLEDAIGNE
hi
wow !! I am faced with experts !!!! ..... well I am not an expert (you guessed it ) all I noticed , is that the Cheetah C has many external similarities with the Kfir :panels layout , gears etc..... I will be very happy , if the model looks like a Cheetah closely ....or even from a distance :lol:
so , one question: It would seem that Cheetah C N°370 had a special marking ( Madmax in yellow) on the left side under the windscreen . another AC : Cheetah C N° 368 had also a special inscription "Windstok" at the same place .. both AC were painted on the dark scheme ... I did some research on the web , I only found a picture of 370 , but at the starboard side
a little update .....?
Snoop
the hump is about 1mm at the highest point
Image

Image


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2020, 21:17 
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Mistral wrote:
Still not convinced the Cs were from Kfirs...research needs to be continued....


There are a few reasons I highly doubt the Neshers formed the main base air frame of the Cheetah C.

Firstly the Neshers were based on the Mirage V and were fitted with 09C's (Jewishfighterlibrary). The introduction of the 9k50 would have resulted in similar air intake modifications as on the R2Z or the Cheetah D upgrades as you already mentioned Mistral. As we also already discussed in another thread, why would (considering the amount of work already going the C upgrade) Atlas rebuild the entire air intake system to not only allow a higher air flow to the engine negating the easier cutback option to also be strong enough to take the larger Kfir Canards instead of the smaller ones fitted to the D's & E'? That is a large indicator they must already have been present.

Secondly, take a look at this pic of the Cheetah C: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/02/dd ... 3e59de.png
Those airirintakes have a very similar "buldge" allowing their area to increase slightly very similar to this (https://www.flickr.com/photos/maithri/8590072354) image Mars posted earlier in the thread.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/83/17 ... 42f465.jpg

Thirdly,look in the pic Snoop posted above, not take a close look at the front of the vertical stabilizer. I never noticed this before, but you can clearly, and even more clearly in his model, see the panel there in a very similar shape and position as to where the Dorsal scoop one was on the Kfir...

Also take a look at this beauty Christo took of Vlaggie:

Image

Looking at the comparison image you posted earlier, the C's fuselage certainly holds much more in common with regards to a "boxier shape" than with the mirage 3 rounded shape. Here is an E for comparison:

Image

Much more rounded fuselage nicely showed by the sun. (From 5 Sqn's Facebook page).

I also checked Winston Brent's book and he also references that the most likely origin of the C air frames according to his research were low time Kfir C2's and possibly some C1's. Five Nesher B's were upgraded to Cheetah D's. He lists another possible link as the longer and stronger main undercarriage fitted to the C as is fitted to the Kfir. This was not fitted to either the Nesher, Cheetah D or E, all Mirage based aircraft. The D's had then retrofitted later as part of the engine upgrade program.

So in conclusion, Atlas either took the time to make an already difficult job (fuselage extension taken into account) more difficult by rebuilding the air intake bigger in area and strengthening the internal structure to accept larger canards or the base air frame already had them fitted. The panel in front of the vertical stabilizer certainly indicates either a Nesher fin extension, or a Kfir dorsal intake, but considering the boxier fuselage shape and unmodified air intakes the latter seems more likely. The stronger undercarriage is also a strong kfir indicator.

But the most compelling argument, to me at least, above all else already mentioned was that Israel built 51 Nesher S single seaters (airvectors), and in the late 70's they sold 35 Single seaters total to Argentina (airvectors) leaving 16 air frames not accounting for any losses compared to 185 Kfir C2's (Fighter-planes). We built 38 Cheetah C's...

Some sources: (No havard style sorry :lol: )
Winston Brent: Cheetah "Guardians of the Nation"
airvectors: http://www.airvectors.net/avmir3_2.html#m1
Fighter-planes: https://www.fighter-planes.com/info/kfir.htm
Jewishfighterlibrary: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/is ... ies-nesher


Sorry for going so off topic but this is an very interesting topic which we can debate for hours...

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Last edited by mamba on 01 May 2020, 07:57, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2020, 21:23 
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snoop wrote:
hi
wow !! I am faced with experts !!!! ..... well I am not an expert (you guessed it ) all I noticed , is that the Cheetah C has many external similarities with the Kfir :panels layout , gears etc..... I will be very happy , if the model looks like a Cheetah closely ....or even from a distance :lol:
so , one question: It would seem that Cheetah C N°370 had a special marking ( Madmax in yellow) on the left side under the windscreen . another AC : Cheetah C N° 368 had also a special inscription "Windstok" at the same place .. both AC were painted on the dark scheme ... I did some research on the web , I only found a picture of 370 , but at the starboard side
a little update .....?
Snoop
the hump is about 1mm at the highest point

Great work snoop! That bump looks Mega! I think you can be proud of the work. It more than looks the part to me! :smt023

I would love to see that picture of 370! I only ever found one photo of her in grey other than Flag colours. Just note she was repainted back into grey after retirement so any photo of her in original grey will have to be taken in 1999 or earlier.

If you check this photo Spotty also had the pilots (not sure of the exact picture date, deffo past 97 re antennae fit, but Lt Col Du plessis was at one stage 2 Sqn OC) name in red on the airframe.
Image

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Last edited by mamba on 01 May 2020, 08:54, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2020, 23:31 
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Location: VILLEDAIGNE
hi

in French ......( the last Cheetah ) just found ,, 370 seems to be the " last flying" Cheetah C . we can see a picture of the right side , but , the inscription " Madmax" ( pilot's nickname ??) doesn't appear
about the origin of the C version :", The Cheetah C has much more imprecise origins and is always the subject of mysteries about these various specifications and capabilities … and this despite its equally abrupt withdrawal in April 2008. Rumor has it that a good number of cells (or even all) are of Israeli origin because simply the number of Cheetah C produced (38) could not be produced by the only South African source. Hence the artistic blur, if not political, surrounding this plane."

https://www.escadrilles.org/reportages/ ... s-cheetah/


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PostPosted: 01 May 2020, 07:56 
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snoop wrote:
hi

in French ......( the last Cheetah ) just found ,, 370 seems to be the " last flying" Cheetah C . we can see a picture of the right side , but , the inscription " Madmax" ( pilot's nickname ??) doesn't appear
about the origin of the C version :", The Cheetah C has much more imprecise origins and is always the subject of mysteries about these various specifications and capabilities … and this despite its equally abrupt withdrawal in April 2008. Rumor has it that a good number of cells (or even all) are of Israeli origin because simply the number of Cheetah C produced (38) could not be produced by the only South African source. Hence the artistic blur, if not political, surrounding this plane."

https://www.escadrilles.org/reportages/ ... s-cheetah/


Hi Snoop, 370 is not quite the last flying, although she is the Last C flying in SA. Ecuador fly's Cheetah C's and Draken in the US also bought some but they are still in SA? Madmax is almost certainly a nick name as she was nick named "Vlaggie" in SAAF service. 370 was painted in the colours of the SA flag for the majority of her life. Post retirement she was repainted. In SAAF service she carried this after the Belgian AF F-16 visit.
Image
Thanks Dean... :wink:


The Cheetah C's are almost certainly of Israeli origin. The Cheetah E production and the Cheetah D production accounted for all SA air frames. The Mirage 3C/B's was not upgraded. It almost certainly political the choice to not disclose the origin. Due to SA's political situation at the time many things were came by with under the table (and very expensive) deals that most likely will not to down well in the global political environment.

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PostPosted: 01 May 2020, 08:02 
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snoop wrote:
hi
wow !! I am faced with experts !!!! ..... well I am not an expert (you guessed it ) all I noticed , is that the Cheetah C has many external similarities with the Kfir :panels layout , gears etc..... I will be very happy , if the model looks like a Cheetah closely ....or even from a distance :lol:
so , one question: It would seem that Cheetah C N°370 had a special marking ( Madmax in yellow) on the left side under the windscreen . another AC : Cheetah C N° 368 had also a special inscription "Windstok" at the same place .. both AC were painted on the dark scheme ... I did some research on the web , I only found a picture of 370 , but at the starboard side
a little update .....?
Snoop
the hump is about 1mm at the highest point


Good work snoop.

I can't comment regarding the special markings other than to say these were the exception rather than the norm.

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PostPosted: 01 May 2020, 09:15 
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Madmax was not a nickname it was the call sign of the pilot who is also on this forum.
Maybe Madmax can confirm this?


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PostPosted: 01 May 2020, 09:43 
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AT6C wrote:
Madmax was not a nickname it was the call sign of the pilot who is also on this forum.
Maybe Madmax can confirm this?


hi
" our ...( if I dare to say ) " .. Madmax built a while ago a nice , and "odd" Mirage CZ , this particular Mirage had this inscription on the vertical fin .. Madmax said that he has no " connection " with this plane .. coincidence ........
snoop
if I can , here is a link
https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/inde ... aleri-132/


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PostPosted: 01 May 2020, 10:20 
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Thanks gents for the great debate. I spent some time last night trying to educate myself using some good piccies off airliners.net and others. I am now in agreement that the Cheetah Cs did not originate from the Neshers - Mamba is correct that the bulk of the Neshers went to the Argies as Daggers and left insufficient airframes for Cheetah C conversion. And by that time all the SAAF Mirage IIIEs had been converted to Cheetah Es.

So then, what of the odd hump ? I think I have found the reason. The Mirage IIIE without the fin fillet has a straight back up to the leading edge of the fillet. The Mirage 5 and Nesher had the fin fillet but it is assumed that the fuselage was the same as the E. Looking at the image per link below, the Kfir has a distinct hump adjacent to the small cooling intakes and then seems to dip down again just ahead of the J-79 cooling air intake and there is your hump very clearly :

https://www.airliners.net/photo/ATAC-Ai ... C0qCLow%3D

The photo posted by Snoop shows the Cheetah C with a distinct fairing in this area which the filletless Mirage III versions do not have. This must have been inserted to cover up the gap from removing the J-79 cooling air intake off a Kfir fuselage. The hump remained on the Cheetah C. So all in all, I would agree they were ex-Kfirs. All the other info posted by mamba supports the theory - boxiness of the rear fuselage etc.


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PostPosted: 01 May 2020, 11:04 
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do I have to understand that the hump comes with the " canard " or fin fillet ??? and that this hump is used to improve the air flow !!??


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PostPosted: 01 May 2020, 11:15 
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Mistral wrote:
Thanks gents for the great debate. I spent some time last night trying to educate myself using some good piccies off airliners.net and others. I am now in agreement that the Cheetah Cs did not originate from the Neshers - Mamba is correct that the bulk of the Neshers went to the Argies as Daggers and left insufficient airframes for Cheetah C conversion. And by that time all the SAAF Mirage IIIEs had been converted to Cheetah Es.

So then, what of the odd hump ? I think I have found the reason. The Mirage IIIE without the fin fillet has a straight back up to the leading edge of the fillet. The Mirage 5 and Nesher had the fin fillet but it is assumed that the fuselage was the same as the E. Looking at the image per link below, the Kfir has a distinct hump adjacent to the small cooling intakes and then seems to dip down again just ahead of the J-79 cooling air intake and there is your hump very clearly :

https://www.airliners.net/photo/ATAC-Ai ... C0qCLow%3D

The photo posted by Snoop shows the Cheetah C with a distinct fairing in this area which the filletless Mirage III versions do not have. This must have been inserted to cover up the gap from removing the J-79 cooling air intake off a Kfir fuselage. The hump remained on the Cheetah C. So all in all, I would agree they were ex-Kfirs. All the other info posted by mamba supports the theory - boxiness of the rear fuselage etc.


The give away is plate, filling the gap as you say.

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PostPosted: 01 May 2020, 11:17 
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snoop wrote:
do I have to understand that the hump comes with the " canard " or fin fillet ??? and that this hump is used to improve the air flow !!??


Hump comes with J79 cooling intake on the base of the fin.

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PostPosted: 02 May 2020, 00:27 
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AT6C wrote:
Madmax was not a nickname it was the call sign of the pilot who is also on this forum.
Maybe Madmax can confirm this?
I can confirm Madmax was the callsign of one of the 2 Sqn pilots when I did support work at 2 Sqn. I have forgotten which one - I never was good at callsigns.


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2020, 22:53 
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CheetahSupporter wrote:
AT6C wrote:
Madmax was not a nickname it was the call sign of the pilot who is also on this forum.
Maybe Madmax can confirm this?
I can confirm Madmax was the callsign of one of the 2 Sqn pilots when I did support work at 2 Sqn. I have forgotten which one - I never was good at callsigns.


Think my brother mentioned it was one the Edwards that Ejected with the Mirage IIICZ at Langebaan??


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