The SAAF Forum

Thought I'd chuck this in the mix - as an avid modeller its important to understand whether the kits we buy are accurate or not. Having AFB Swartkop at my doorstep, and a tape measure in hand, I put together the following on Mirage III and Cheetah wings/canards using the Museum's aircraft to measure :

Firstly - Mirage III wings :

Mirage III wings by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIICZ #805 has been fitted with E wings :

IIICZ 805 (left) - IMG_0816 - 800 (1) by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIICZ 805 (right) - IMG_0820 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIIBZ #818 fitted with CZ wings :

Mirage IIIBZ 818 (left) - IMG_0835 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Mirage IIIBZ 818 (right) - IMG_0836 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIIBZ #816 also with CZ wings :

Mirage IIIBZ 816 (right) - IMG_0851 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIIRZ #835 fitted with E wings :

Mirage IIIRZ 835 (left) - IMG_0830 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Mirage IIIRZ 835 (right) - IMG_0829 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

IIIRZ #838 :

Mirage IIIRZ 838 (left) - IMG_0823 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Mirage IIIRZ 838 (right) - IMG_0824 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Cheetah wings :

Cheetah wings by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Cheetah D 847 (left) - IMG_0839 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Cheetah D 847 (right) - IMG_0840 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Cheetah E 842 (left) - IMG_0834 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Cheetah E 842 (right) - IMG_0833 - 800 by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

So, based on the measurements, the Cheetah D/E wings are similar in dimension to the IIIC/E wings with the obvious exception of outboard leading edge chord extension resulting in the dog tooth.

Wings on the Mirage IIIB, C and R are clearly interchangeable and therefore the assumption is that the R2Z, D and D2Z would be the same.

I still need to measure up the Cheetah C wing.

Cheetah D and E canards are the same dimensions with the same attachment points :

Cheetah D and E canards by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

Cheetah C canard is significantly larger :

Cheetah C canards by Malcolm Reid, on Flickr

So the D/E canard is 70% the size of the C canard. The C canard would've been the same as a Kfir canard. Why then the smaller canards on the D/E ? Also unique to the D/E wings is the presence of a wing fence inboard of the dog tooth, maybe required due to the smaller canard ?

Thanks Mistral for this.

Something to note the C canard is positioned further forward than the D/E. The C canard is in the same position as the Kfir, again pointing to its heritage.

Also the canards fitted to Mirage D/E aircraft are smaller than the canards fitted to Cheetah D/E.

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Hey Mistral,

Interesting stuff. Thank you



Are you going to measure the Cheetah R's Advanced Combat Wing as well?

Regards,
Stratobat

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'If the literal sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you come up with nonsense'

They're standing vertically so would be difficult to reach the wing tips. Will post some piccies though.

That's great ! thanks a lot Malcolm

There's an unsubstantiated theory that Cheetah C were Kfir airframes, re-engined from J79 to 09K50. Everyone "knows" it, but there's no official confirmation. Let's assume that the theory is correct. In that case, the Cheetah C airframe has any structural modifications necessary to support the loads of full-size Kfir canards. Cheetah D and E, on the other hand, are updated Mirage III DZ / D2Z and EZ. Those airframes were not rebuilt to the level needed to support the loads of full-size Kfir canards so 70% canards were fitted.

AFAIK the Cheetah Cs were built from Nesher airframes. The Nesher was developed from the Mirage 5 and kept the Atar engines.

Yes Nesher airframes, not Kfir airframes.

Ja the only explanation I thought was to do with structural load constraints on III fuselages. But the Cheetah C being Nesher airframes then doesn't add to this explanation, unless the Neshers had reinforced intakes for some or other reason when originally designed / built.

The Neshers were direct copies (clandestinely acquired blueprints) from the Mirage V if I'm not mistaken in which case a reinforced intake area would not make sence since then there would be no reason not to modify the Nesher B's that became Cheetah B's with the same canards as the Cheetah C's. The Ex Kfir C2's converted to use Atar's seems like the more plausible theory in my opinion. Of course something like Nesher rear ends mated to modified Kfir fronts like with Cheetah D 844 seems like a very promising theory and perhaps very plausible even.

MAMBA

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MAMBA

Keep your feet on the ground, and reach for the skies!

If I recall, the J-79 required a larger fuselage. The Neshers already had the 09K50. They were definitely not Kfir fuselages.