The SAAF Forum

Discussion on the SAAF and other southern African air forces.
It is currently 24 Feb 2020, 00:52

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Seen in the Bay
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2012, 22:54 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
For info on our helmet system:

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o ... Itemid=116


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Seen in the Bay
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2012, 23:12 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2005, 08:40
Posts: 3390
Location: Whangarei, New Zealand
Eugene wrote:
H1017412 wrote:
Gotcha. :smt023 Sorry for the hijack Dean / Kremlin, agree with Balerit - maybe a new thread is required :)


Splitters!

BTW try the history section in this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display


Are you taking the mick Yvgeny? :roll: That section is what I've been on about for the last few posts (i.e. cites no sources which are usually indicated by numbers in square parentheses (which are hyperlinks to sources at the bottom of the article), as featured in the technology section.

_________________
A plan is simply a basis for change.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Seen in the Bay
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2012, 23:30 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 23:59
Posts: 4268
Location: 34º 05' 54" S 18º 22' 49"E
H1017412 wrote:
Are you taking the mick Yvgeny? :roll: That section is what I've been on about for the last few posts (i.e. cites no sources which are usually indicated by numbers in square parentheses (which are hyperlinks to sources at the bottom of the article), as featured in the technology section.


Sorry my abject apologies - did not go to wikipedia from your first post and misunderstood you to say nothing was mentioned. As to cites - there is a lot of South African history of that period for which I'm afraid you would never get any reliable cites. Only anecdotal evidence.

Very busy and distracted this evening trying to debug a program, helping a friend fix his virussed computer (telephonically), answering e-mails and participating in at least three forums! Multiconfusion it's called! I should go to bed I suppose ....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Seen in the Bay
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012, 14:57 
Offline

Joined: 29 Jan 2009, 23:14
Posts: 81
Balerit wrote:



Unfortunately that article's statement that the SAAF was the first to fly with a HMS is wrong. The first operational system was used by the US Navy and was called the VTAS.

http://www.best-of-flightgear.dk/vtas.htm

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... d-Displays


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012, 08:07 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
Ja, the Americans think did they did everything first, but I beg to differ.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012, 09:26 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2005, 08:40
Posts: 3390
Location: Whangarei, New Zealand
Balerit wrote:
Ja, the Americans think did they did everything first, but I beg to differ.


By all means, substantiate your point of view.

_________________
A plan is simply a basis for change.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012, 22:55 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
http://www.defencetalk.com/denel-optron ... oon-12206/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Seen in the Bay
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012, 23:06 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
prion wrote:
Balerit wrote:



Unfortunately that article's statement that the SAAF was the first to fly with a HMS is wrong. The first operational system was used by the US Navy and was called the VTAS.

http://www.best-of-flightgear.dk/vtas.htm

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... d-Displays


A pioneer of head-tracker systems, Denel Optronics already designed and produced operational pilot helmet-mounted sighting and tracking systems in the early 1970s.

Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/denel-optron ... z1mreWhzQT

The first operational jet fighters with HMD (Mirage F1AZ) were fielded by the South African Air Force. After the South African system had been proven in combat, playing a role in downing Soviet aircraft over Angola, the Soviets embarked on a crash program to counter the technology. As a result, the MiG-29 was fielded in 1985 with an HMD and a high off-boresight weapon (AA-11 Archer/R-73), giving them an advantage in close in maneuvering engagements.

Several nations responded with programs to counter the MiG-29/HMD/AA-11 (and later Su-27) combination once its effectiveness was known, principally through access to former East German MiG-29s that were operated by the unified German Air Force.

The first successful HMD outside South Africa and the Soviet Union was the Israeli Air Force Elbit DASH series, fielded in conjunction with the Python 4, in the early 1990s. American and European fighter HMDs lagged behind, not becoming widely used until the late 1990s and early 2000s (decade). The US-UK-Germany responded initially with a combined ASRAAM effort. Technical difficulties led to the US abandoning ASRAAM, instead funding development of the AIM-9X and the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System in 1990.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Seen in the Bay
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012, 14:21 
Offline

Joined: 29 Jan 2009, 23:14
Posts: 81
Balerit wrote:
prion wrote:
Balerit wrote:



Unfortunately that article's statement that the SAAF was the first to fly with a HMS is wrong. The first operational system was used by the US Navy and was called the VTAS.

http://www.best-of-flightgear.dk/vtas.htm

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... d-Displays


A pioneer of head-tracker systems, Denel Optronics already designed and produced operational pilot helmet-mounted sighting and tracking systems in the early 1970s.

Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/denel-optron ... z1mreWhzQT

The first operational jet fighters with HMD (Mirage F1AZ) were fielded by the South African Air Force. After the South African system had been proven in combat, playing a role in downing Soviet aircraft over Angola, the Soviets embarked on a crash program to counter the technology. As a result, the MiG-29 was fielded in 1985 with an HMD and a high off-boresight weapon (AA-11 Archer/R-73), giving them an advantage in close in maneuvering engagements.

Several nations responded with programs to counter the MiG-29/HMD/AA-11 (and later Su-27) combination once its effectiveness was known, principally through access to former East German MiG-29s that were operated by the unified German Air Force.

The first successful HMD outside South Africa and the Soviet Union was the Israeli Air Force Elbit DASH series, fielded in conjunction with the Python 4, in the early 1990s. American and European fighter HMDs lagged behind, not becoming widely used until the late 1990s and early 2000s (decade). The US-UK-Germany responded initially with a combined ASRAAM effort. Technical difficulties led to the US abandoning ASRAAM, instead funding development of the AIM-9X and the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System in 1990.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display



I think you may have misread. The thread and my post concerns HMS and not HMD's which is another story altogether. In this regard the US Navy's VTAS was first to be operational (1970).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Seen in the Bay
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012, 08:37 
Offline

Joined: 15 Feb 2010, 02:11
Posts: 475
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Balerit wrote:
The first successful HMD outside South Africa and the Soviet Union was the Israeli Air Force Elbit DASH series
I tried an Elbit DASH helmet in 1987 - presumably a prototype. It was a really unpleasant experience - the exit pupil was tiny, so the image disappeared if the helmet moved even slightly on your head. And the display was quite dim, although we didn't get the chance to try it outside.

We had the Eloptro helmet at the Cheetah C Integration bench at 5ASU somewhere around 1997 or 1998, but there were interface issues (mainly connectors, IIRC) so I don't think we managed to see anything more than test symbology.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Seen in the Bay
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012, 19:11 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
CheetahSupporter wrote:
Balerit wrote:
The first successful HMD outside South Africa and the Soviet Union was the Israeli Air Force Elbit DASH series
I tried an Elbit DASH helmet in 1987 - presumably a prototype. It was a really unpleasant experience - the exit pupil was tiny, so the image disappeared if the helmet moved even slightly on your head. And the display was quite dim, although we didn't get the chance to try it outside.

We had the Eloptro helmet at the Cheetah C Integration bench at 5ASU somewhere around 1997 or 1998, but there were interface issues (mainly connectors, IIRC) so I don't think we managed to see anything more than test symbology.


Interesting. I often think how uncomfortable looking the Apache system is, surely their fwd vision is obstructed? Have you seen the Rooivalk video of it flying through, I presume the Drakensberg, and you need your eyes 'peeled'. :shock:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2012, 10:11 
Offline

Joined: 15 Feb 2010, 02:11
Posts: 475
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
From what little I remember of the late-90's Eloptro helmet, the visor was used as the optical combiner. Visibility through it was much better than the early DASH helmet I tried (but of course it was 10 years later.) But I don't know if that helmet system was the one which Eloptro / Zeiss Optronics market these days. The optical head tracking system is almost certainly the same since it seems to be the best worldwide - I think Les Bennett (ex Mirage F1 pilot, one of the SAAF Engineer pilots) held the patent originally.

I remember hearing that Eloptro had some complicated procedure for moulding individual helmet inserts for each pilot, maybe so they could minimise helmet movement on the head.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012, 08:31 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 17:19
Posts: 7727
The Argus - 16 March 1986

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012, 08:43 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 17:19
Posts: 7727
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012, 09:28 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 17:19
Posts: 7727
4 March 1984
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group