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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2011, 15:41 
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To get back to the RSA 3/4 missiles. If they were to be brought into service, which division of the SADF would have operated it? Would it be SAAF or ARMY? Just wondering. If army, then which section.
I also heard rumours about missile silo's in or near some mountain range here in ZA. I think "Waterberg" or something like that. Don't know how true it is.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2011, 16:01 
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leading edge wrote:
Eugene wrote:
Israel owns many thermo-nukes (perhaps as many as China) and the means to deliver them over a wide area. Maybe anywhere in the world looking at their satellite capabilities. Has had nukes since 1973. Has it brought any advantage?


Well, perhaps your question was answered by yourself.

A clue: When was the last time Israel was invaded by the standing army of a sovereign country?

The answer:

The Yom Kippur War.
The date?
1973.


Contrary to popular belief modern Israel has not been invaded very often, despite the numerous wars it has been involved in. I very much doubt the presence of nuclear weapons has been a major deterrent.

The changing dynamics of middle Eastern politics beginning in the mid-seventies made it unprofitable
to even consider invasion for either Egypt or Syria. Do you know why Israel went nuclear? It assembled it's first warheads during the Yom Kippur war after it had started winning and were rapidly approaching Cairo. The Soviet Union, at that stage, threatened to supply Egypt with nukes should the Israelis not cease their advance. To balance that threat the Israelis took the decision to assemble a few crude bombs. They had the fissile material but had not gone the whole hog at that time.

Then Sadat discovered all he had to do to get the canal back was act rationally. You should have been in Israel the day Sadat addressed the Knesset. You could have invaded the place with a handful of charladies armed with feather dusters at that time. The entire country ground to a halt. Everyone was glued to the TV. Nothing moved in the streets, the shops and cafes were empty. It was amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2011, 16:03 
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Buccaneer wrote:
Hi Eugene Thanks for all the information. You perhaps know what other modifications was done on the Buccaneer beside the bulged bomb bay door????


Can't exactly remember but it was mostly avionics, electronics, radar and nav/weapons stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2011, 17:01 
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Quote:
The changing dynamics of middle Eastern politics beginning in the mid-seventies made it unprofitable
to even consider invasion for either Egypt or Syria. Do you know why Israel went nuclear? It assembled it's first warheads during the Yom Kippur war after it had started winning and were rapidly approaching Cairo. The Soviet Union, at that stage, threatened to supply Egypt with nukes should the Israelis not cease their advance. To balance that threat the Israelis took the decision to assemble a few crude bombs. They had the fissile material but had not gone the whole hog at that time.


Utter drivel - Golda Meir ordered Israeli nuke to the airfields when it was looking like Israel was about lose not when they were about to win, to help them onto the canal zone. That is utter crap.

On 8 October 1973 just after the start of the Yom Kippur War, Golda Meir and her closest aides decided to put eight nuclear armed F-4s at Tel Nof Airbase on 24 hour alert and as many nuclear missile launchers at Sedot Mikha Airbase operational as possible. Seymour Hersh adds that the initial target list that night "included the Egyptian and Syrian military headquarters near Cairo and Damascus."[170] This nuclear alert was meant not only as a means of precaution, but to push the Soviets to restrain the Arab offensive and to convince the US to begin sending supplies. One later report said that a Soviet intelligence officer did warn the Egyptian chief of staff, and colleagues of US National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger said that the threat of a nuclear exchange caused him to urge for a massive Israeli resupply.[171] Hersh points out that before Israel obtained its own satellite capability, it engaged in espionage against the United States to obtain nuclear targeting information on Soviet targets.[172]

Israeli military and nuclear doctrine increasingly focused on preemptive war against any possible attack with conventional, chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, or even a potential conventional attack on Israel's weapons of mass destruction.[14]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

It was because the Israelis were suffering catastrophic losses due to the Soviet air defence network that they considered using nukes to destroy the Egyptian columns advancing on Israel. Only massive US pressure and resupply ensured that the Israelis turned the tide.
Dimona nuclear plant had been active for over 10 years prior to the Yom Kippur and the weapons program had been going since 1967.


Nuclear weapons are very useful simply by their existance they deter aggression as no one can effectively threaten a state who has them, witness the tip toeing around North Korea, Pakistan and Inda as players realise they can not be pushed too far. It was very logical for the SA government to develop them as it ensured that the Russians and their proxies could only push so far. In my personal opinion it stopped a full scale invasion of SA by the frontline states as a nuke would guarantee the destruction of any advancing army columns as well as resupply bases etc. In the end the Soviets could win however the cost would be astronomic. The cost/benefit ratio was way out of whack.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2011, 17:54 
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This is an interesting thread ,and I have had some interest in this in the past,the Buccaneer would have been the ideal delivery platform it was used by both the RN and RAf in the nuclear strike role ,the weapon carried was the WE177 which the buccaneer could carry two ,lots of info here http://www.nuclear-weapons.info/vw.htm

the WE177 was also designed to be carried by the westland wasp as a depth charge,not a job I would want to volunteer for :shock:


there is also a wealth of information here ,but I am not sure how accurate the sources are http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Safrica ... Bombs.html

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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2011, 19:10 
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Buccaneer wrote:
I am also glad that RSA never used the H Bombs. The Buccaneer bulged bomb bay door modification must have been done during the late 70's. I have a photograph of Buccaneer 413 taken at an airshow in May 1979 which clearly show the bulged bomb bay door.


Hi Buccaneer
Is it possible to upload that photo here?


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 09:51 
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AFAIK, the Buccaneer bulged bomb bay door was a modification similar to that performed on the RAF aircraft, it contained a 425 imp gallon fuel tank and had nothing to do with the ability to carry nuclear weapons.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 10:36 
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Correction: South Africa had six and a half gun-type ATOM bombs, and not THERMONUCLEAR (Nuclear) bombs. I think implosion type thermonuclear weapons was not deemed nessisary at the time. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 11:36 
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gripen1 wrote:
think implosion type thermonuclear weapons was not deemed nessisary at the time.
Correction: South Africa had six and a half gun-type ATOM bombs, and not THERMONUCLEAR (Nuclear) bombs. I think implosion type thermonuclear weapons was not deemed nessisary at the time. :wink:

The USAAF dropped one of each a type on Japan,
Gun type uranium-235 (Small boy) Hiroshima and an
implossion type plutonium-239 (Fat boy) Nakasaki
both were just nucular.

A Thermonucular is alot harder to produce as you have to add more stages etc. This costs more in research etc.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Nuclear Role
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2020, 16:15 
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A very thorough and interesting report on the Vela nuclear test, including an interview the Simonstown Soviet spy Dieter Gerhardt:


Blast From the Past
In 1979, a U.S. satellite detected signs of a nuclear explosion. An analysis of the evidence today points to a clandestine nuclear test, a Carter administration cover-up, and only one country that was willing and able to carry it out: Israel.


https://getpocket.com/explore/item/blast-from-the-past


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