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 Post subject: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2012, 22:20 
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i think there might be another roundel thread here, but i cant find it :oops: so pls feel free to move this

after it came up in discussion in another thread about seriel numbers, i thought i'd post a complete collection of SAAF roundels and dates here.

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SAAF Scalloped Eagle (2003 - Present)

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SAAF Scalloped Eagle Low Visibility (2003 - Present)

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SAAF Eagle and Castle (1982 - 2003)

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SAAF Castle and Eagle Low Vivibility (1981 - 2003)

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SAAF Castle and Eagle (Light Blue) (1981 - 1982)
This was the roundel for a very short period of time, and I have never actually seen it on any aircraft.

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SAAF Springbok and Castle (1958 - 1981)

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SAAF Springbok and Castle Low Visibility (1958 - 1981)

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SAAF Springbok Roundel (1947 - 1958)

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SAAF National Colours Roundel (1927 - 1947)

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SAAF Roundel (1921 - 1927)

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SAAF Roundel (Trail Version) (1920 - 1921)

The Following roundels are undated, but if im not mistaken, they are variants used during the WWII period:

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SAAF Standard Insignia

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SAAF A-Type Roundel

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SAAF A1-Type Roundel

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SAAF B-Type Roundel

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SAAF C-Type Roundel

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SAAF C1-Type Roundel

Something I could never figure out: Why the hell would people paint a bull's eye on their aircraft??? lol

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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2012, 06:33 
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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2012, 08:54 
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No no no !!!... These come from the wiki page ... Stay away from there !!! Do a search here for a set of posts by Wingman ... evolution of markings ... or something like that, it has a great article by the late Dave Bekker on SAAF markings.., giving correct dates. :-)

I would link to it, however I am on my mobile.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2012, 09:21 
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See viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4898&hilit=insignia&start=15


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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 17:09 
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There is one thing about the SAAF/SALM that confuses me. It seems the air force is confused itself about its identity. I have found ten different styles of roundel. Even for an air force that has been around for 92 years, that's a lot. My air force(s) has had two (three if count the RAF's) since 1912 when the Royal Norwegian Naval Air Service was established (amalgamated with the Army Air Service to form the RNoAF in 1944).

Leaving the question of the uniform out of it, this is a bit confusing. Anyone why they "keep changing"?

Here are the roundels I have found

Early 20s: Image
Mid 20s: Image
WW2: Image
Immediate post-war: Image
Republic: Image
When and why? Image
From 1994? Image Image
Post 2003: Image Image

What confuses me ist that there are several dates given for the eagle roundels. Can anyone enlighten me?


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 19:58 
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The subject of SAAF aircraft markings is a fascinating one - and frustrating! It could be said that one could almost write a thesis on the history and development of them. The SAAF holds the rather dubious distinction of having had more aircraft markings than any other air force in the world - the only other one that comes close is neighbouring Southern Rhodesia/Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.

The Orange/Green/Red/Blue roundel was an experimental one authorized in December 1920 but apparently only applied to one DH9 for trails - all the other aircraft flying at the time still bore standard WW1 RAF roundels

The second roundel, used from 1921 to about 1929, was an adaption of the RAF roundel - retaining the Vermilion and Ultramarine but with a Green centre and Lemon Yellow replacing the white. On aircraft painted brown there was a thin white outer line - deleted when the aircraft were repainted silver.

During the 1930s RAF type "A" and "D" roundels were used with an Orange centre instead of Red. A simple roundel merely based on that of the RAF and using the colours of the National flag adopted in 1928.

During WW2 the SAAF used much the same variations as the RAF, again with an Orange centre - these were mostly RAF aircraft in any case and had the red centre merely overpainted.

The Springbok roundel was introduced in 1950 (first applied to 2 Sqn Mustangs in Korea) - supposedly to have a more distinctive roundel in theatre since the other Commonwealth Air Forces all used the RAF one at the time. Used until 1959 when the Springbok Castle was introduced. It is said that this roundel encouraged the other air forces to also adopt distinctive roundels since not long afterwards New Zealand used the Kiwi, Australia the Kangaroo and Canada the Maple leaf.

Just before Republic in 1961 a lot of national insignia were changed as much reflected the Colonial history - the Castle was adopted throughout the SADF as an emblem. During the mid-1980s various low-viz versions of the Springbok Castle were introduced. Note that during the 1980s and early 1990s the SAAF flag bore the Eagle Castle but aircraft continued to carry the Springbok Castle until 1993 - even then some types, due for phase-out like the Harvards never wore the Eagle Castle.

In 1993 the Eagle Castle started being seen on SAAF aircraft (the first I saw were the Astras) - a number of variations were seen, often distinctive to the various base/depot paint shops. There were a number of low-viz versions as well.

The "Cookie cutter" roundel was introduced in 2003, also with low-viz variations.

The turquoise and gold eagle and castle was never applied to an aircraft and I only ever saw it being used briefly on a SAAF flag.

Unfortunately the identity issue should be applied to the entire country and not just the SAAF. Every time there has been some political change then all sorts of things had to change as well from flags and other national insignia to road and place names, to currency, etc, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 20:24 
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Interesting article, but it completely avoids the question why all the changes. I see the need to distance oneself from the UK in the late 40s - along with the other Dominions and us Rhodies, but the change to the Castle design (which I find to be pure genius - Kasteel de Goede Hoop built by the VOC and the oldest colonial building in South Africa and the Springbok brings heritage and national identity of the time together) and later changes are described as "happened", but not why and it is the "why" that intrigues me.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 21:23 
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Yes, why the Springbok had to be replaced by the Eagle - who knows, as I say we always seem to want to change things. Maybe something in our national psyche!

After 1994 it was obvious that the Castle's days were numbered. I was actually surprised that it survived for long afterwards. Apart from the anthem and flag it took surprisingly long to change the things the NP were very quick to back in 1961.

so:
Version 1 - trial, so understandable - not really a variant since I think only one aircraft is known to have carried it.
Version 2: a reasonably sound design - the influence of the RAF tempered with the Springbok "Green and Gold".
Version 3: the "oranje-blanje-blou" flag had been recently adopted so National identity and pride come into play.
Version 4: wartime expediency I suppose.
Version 5: a desire to already start distancing away from the Commonwealth as well as an identity in the Korean War. The Springbok was very much a symbol in more than just sport so a logical choice.
Version 6: with Republic a whole new direction - particularly for the Afrikaner so the Castle (still to me the most attractive of all SAAF markings) and Springbok were very important symbols.
Version 7: why the eagle - no idea, maybe just change for the sake of change. Perhaps someone came to the conclusion that the Springbok was used to a large degree by the Army and if the Navy could have its own emblem (the Lion of Nassau) in the Castle then the SAAF should have its Fish Eagle emblem (adopted in its original form back in 1947) in the Castle.
Version 8: Well, to the new order the Castle would clearly have not been acceptable for long. The Castle was replaced throughout the SANDF by the nine-point star (representing the 9 Provinces). At least the Fish Eagle was retained.


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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 23:28 
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Very interesting, but why are these two eagles facing the opposite direction?
Image Image


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 23:52 
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flyingspringbok wrote:
The subject of SAAF aircraft markings is a fascinating one - and frustrating! It could be said that one could almost write a thesis on the history and development of them. The SAAF holds the rather dubious distinction of having had more aircraft markings than any other air force in the world - the only other one that comes close is neighbouring Southern Rhodesia/Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.


Ah, that has to do with political change as well.

When Southern Rhodesia was simply Southern Rhodesia, the roundel was this inoccuous roundel. The green and yellow "waistband" signifies the Southern Rhodesia Air Force. This was when Southern Rhodesia was a self-governing colony under the auspices of the Commonwealth Relations Office (previously the Dominion Office).
Image

Then in 1953 Southern Rhodesia joined Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland to form the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland or the Central African Federation. The two latter colonies came under the auspices of the Colonial Office, which, unsurprisingly for anyone who has any knowledge of British bureaucracy, was at "war" with the Commonwealth Relations Office (did I hear "Yes, Minister"?). The armed forces of the three colonies were united as a federal force with three regiments and an air force which became the Royal Rhodesian Air Force with three assegais - one for each colony.
Image

When the Federation was dissolved in 1963, the assets of the federal military services was distributed to the three participant colonies. Most of the federal air force stayed in Southern Rhodesia, and as the two of the assegais went to become independent states, the assegais disappeared from the roundel. The name remained Royal Rhodesian Air Force,
Image

Then we come to 1970 when Rhodesia became a republic severing ties with the UK as did South Africa in 1961 a change of national identity took place - and the Rhodesian dollar replaced the Rhodesian pound and Elizabeth was sent packing...
Image

Then came Zimbabwe, but that is a different story...


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PostPosted: 28 Dec 2012, 06:59 
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scanavphoto wrote:
Very interesting, but why are these two eagles facing the opposite direction?
Image Image


The SAAF insignia is handed - your images just happen to depict both left and right hand side versions - so when applied to the aircraft the Springbok and Eagle will always face forward on the fuselage and inwards when on the wings. Heraldically the Eagle faces towards your right while oddly, the Springbok in both Roundel and Castle face towards your left.

The old Rhodesian Air Force "Cat and Toothpick" roundel was similarly handed, as are those of Australia and New Zealand. Even the Air Force of Zimbabwe has had two different insignia.


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 28 Dec 2012, 07:35 
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Great breakdown of the markings flyingspringbok !!! :-)


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 28 Dec 2012, 07:46 
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Yes, very fascinating and makes a very interesting story.


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PostPosted: 28 Dec 2012, 19:45 
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flyingspringbok wrote:
The SAAF insignia is handed - your images just happen to depict both left and right hand side versions - so when applied to the aircraft the Springbok and Eagle will always face forward on the fuselage and inwards when on the wings. Heraldically the Eagle faces towards your right while oddly, the Springbok in both Roundel and Castle face towards your left.

The old Rhodesian Air Force "Cat and Toothpick" roundel was similarly handed, as are those of Australia and New Zealand. Even the Air Force of Zimbabwe has had two different insignia.


Makes sense and I should have thought of that. The RNoAF roundel is similarly handed. When you refer to the AFZ's insignia, you mean the Zimbabwe bird and not the roundel, don't you?


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 Post subject: Re: SAAF Roundels
PostPosted: 28 Dec 2012, 21:01 
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Yes - the first AFZ insignia, the yellow Zimbabwe bird was also handed. Actually a nicer emblem than the later "deck chair" roundel.

I notice with all the images posted that the proportions of the castle are wrong - as is so often seen in images, model decals and ex-SAAF aircraft "restorations" by private owners. Notice on the quoted image how the bastions are 90 degrees to the pentagon - note angled as is so often depicted. The white border is almost always far to thick and the least said about the goat masquerading as a springbok, the better. The springbok in the Castle was a very different design to that used in the roundel (for one you can see four legs and the springbok gazes outwards). With the roundel only the back hoof extends into the blue roundel - the head and horns remain within the white.

fix-a-dak wrote:
Image


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