The SAAF Forum

I was googling for info on the J-10 and found something interesting.

The J-10 scored so well when fighting against the J-11(a chinese built improved Su-27) that the PLA halted all further J-11/Su-27 import. They had originally planned to buy 200 kits, but the overwhelming result for the J-10 made them think twice and just 95 were built before the cancellation.
the J-11B is an improvement in avionics, radar, weapons and powerplant in comparison to the Su-27B. Extensive work has been made in order to reduce the RCS from 15 m2 to 5 m2.

Despite all these improvements the J-10 proved to be more than the J-11B could handle.

I´m really not surprised considering the generations gap. The Gripen has proved this time and again in international exercises, fighting against 3rd gen fighters such as the F-15, F-16, F-18, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and so on. Although all these aircraft incorporate advanced technologies, they cannot compete with the new 4th gen fighters.

The booming economy and industry of China has enabled them to put a lot of resources this time around in military R&D. The J-11, J-10 and FC-1 have been suprising a lot of people - exceeding what we normally expect out of China. Similar China reducing their planned Su-27, Pakistand did the same , decided not to exercise the option for more F-16 C/D Block 50s, but increased the JF-17s instead. Even the avionics - you will find FINMECCANICA/FRIAR brochures online saying their radar has been chosen for the JF-17 - until the Chinese can and presented something better.

I also think the reality of quality over quantity with the two Gulf Wars has made military thinkers in former communist countries relook at what wins a war!

Do you have a link where they discuss the J-10 RCS?

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

Robban
I think some of the confusion regarding Gripen’s weight has to do with what version is being talked of. The lower empty weight refers to the “A” version and the higher empty weight to the “C”. I did not as yet see any weight figures for the NG. I do not say I’m correct on this, but it can be an explanation.

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Da-di-da-da-da

Here's one. http://politics.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/334733

AFAIK, the A version weighs(officially) 6622kg, whereas the C version weighs 6800kg. The NG weighs 7000kg, but if it is the weight of a single seater or twin seater I don't know.

Anyway if we take the JAS39A's official empty weight, 6622kg, and then look at the(official) normal take off weight(assuming it is correct) which is 8500-9000kg. Add the weight of the internal fuel(2400kg), we get 9022kg. As the Gripen flies with the external drop tank fitted and fueled 95% of the time, the weight of it should be added to the "normal take off weight. +900kg = 9922kg. That's almost 10 tons! Way above the official normal take off weight.

If we use 5700kg as empty weight, and add 2400kg of internal fuel we get 8100kg, and then we add the weight of the drop tank, + 900kg, we get 9000kg.

Man, I think I lost myself somewhere?

Oryx, I know you're reading this. I bet you're laughing at my feeble yet serious attempts as I try to solve the greatest mystery known to man!



Some(of my) pics of Gripens in their normal configuration.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... -01111.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/S-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/S-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... ground.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/37.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244814994
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244815053
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244815047
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244815119
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244815124
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244815130
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... /39a-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... dout-1.jpg

Thanks Robban. 5sqm RCS for a morden fighter is not good!

Shouldn't normal take of weight also include 2 x SRAAMs? .... .... Or is that only for some planes whose flight characteristics are designed/optimized with the SRAAMs. The JF-17 is one.

I have a lot of questions on these terms like "Normal take off weight", maximum this or that. I wish I could get a list that describes a standard way to calculate them. I know the "salesman" will prefer a formula that shows his product in a better light.

Cheers.

_________________
In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

Gripen do occasionally fly with Sidewinders attached(as you can see in some of the pics above). These Sidewinders seldom have any fins fitted though. I guess they only need the seeker head? What does a Sidewinder weigh? 90kg?

Seems like 85 or 86kg. http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-9.html . Don't foget the weight of the paylons (assuming they are removable).

Nice photos by the way. Do you get a chance to walk around the Gripens like that? With your job or just "aircraft spotting"? I was stopped and questioned by poilice 3 weeks ago after taking my camera to the local international airport and photographing airlines, .

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

Not at all, Robban. I admire you for all the info you have gathered on Gripen - it has to be quite difficult figuring out which of all the conflicting data in the public domain is more feasible. I wish I could help you, but you know the rules...

When is your book coming out?

Thanks pngwerume! I'm just a nutter who knows some people that's all. Most pics are from airshows, but some are taken at the airbases of Visby and Ronneby. Sometimes I get lucky!

Here are some other pics.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822266
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822270
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822275
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822281
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822641
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822709
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822375
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244821967
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822863
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822407
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244823517
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244823525
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244823811
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822230

He he.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244822932
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ ... 1244823008

I know Oryx, I'm just messin' with ya!

The book is a long way from being finished I'm afraid. I still need to do more drawings, and I need to do more research on the J21R. The fools back in the day decided to scrap every single one of them, so it's really difficult to find good detailed photos. We have tons of photos of Gripens, Viggens, Drakens, Lansens and Tunnans, photos that has never been seen before, and my friend is working on those colour profiles. Alot still remains to be done though!

_________________
In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

RE: Robban's S1 and S2 Jpeg pic:

Damn, that dual seater Gripen D has some sexy lines... Still think she's more beautiful than the Single seat C...

I LOVE THE GRIPEN

Are you sure that's not the objects that create the smoke for displays? If it doesn't have fins, it can't steer... Or would there be any practical reason for flying with a 'dud' Sidewinder?

hmm, maybe to advertise the Iris or Darter? Because people will see the Sidewinder and think: Damn, we need the Darter (or Iris), QUICKLY.

It's called a smokewinder.

As for the comment of steering a missile. At low altitudes with high dynamic pressures around the missile, the greater the effectiveness of the movable fins or aerofins will be, but that is mainly at low altitude's below 40,000ft, at altitudes for e.g. 65,000ft, there is a very low dynamic pressure around the missile, making the fins very ineffective, thus most new generation missiles use thrust vectoring as an aid or soley for steering at low and high altitudes.