The SAAF Forum

Tell me do you fly both the Gripen and J-10 to state the 147x series or 149x/KLJ-3 series is better then the PS-05A, since you know the exact specifications of both systems and seem to think that the J-10 is more advanced, please tell us why you think so.

Navigation, please enlighting me?

Speed and acceleration, mmmmm..... Do you have any accurate figures we can use, my best estimates are they are both supersonic.

Ceiling and rate of climb, ceiling is generally not important unless you are intercepting high altitude a/c where rate of climb is the main factor to look at, and most of the time the pressurization system is the main problem not the aircraft, that is why most companies publish operational ceilings and not service ceilings, please learn the difference, most people get confused.

Manoeuvrability, Armament: You seem to think you know everything about the two aircraft, please tell us.

Trying to say what aircraft is better than another by stats can not be done really, an indication maybe.

People are still arguing decades later over the Bf 109E-3 V Spitfire Mk I and Sabre V Mig15.

From all accounts the Mig 15 should have finished off the Sabre but did not, due to a number of reasons.

On paper the Mig 15s stats are very impressive against the Sabre, but in combat it was not. The same could be said for this discussion possibly. The Sabres one saving grace was its gun radar and it seems that the Chinese pilots were not wearing G-suits. The 15s canopy was also prone to fogging up at high altitude as its cockpit heating was not all that reliable/effective, a small thing but it had huge consequences as they had to come down to a lower altitude giving up their advantage.

So unless these aircraft met in actual combat, not an exercise we will never know.

Just some quickly put together comparisons.

Range( max possible...) Gripen max range with external fuel 3500km. Max range J-10, 3400km, probably with external fuel.

Speed (acceleration, max possible... Both are capable of M2+ speeds at high alt. M1.2 at low alt. Acceleration for Gripen, from M0,5 to M1,1 in 30 seconds. Numbers not avaliable for J-10.

Ceiling (rate of climb...) 18,000m for the Gripen, 20,000m for the J-10. Climb rate for the Gripen from brake release to 10,000m in 100 sec. Their TWR is similar, but considering the draggy tail of the J-10 I'm guessing the Gripen has lower drag, giving it an edge in climbrate(and acceleration) at least at higher speeds.

Maneuvarability Hard to tell.

Wing loading J-10, empty, 249kg/m2, loaded, 474kg/m2.
Wing loading Gripen, empty, 223kg/m2, max weight 459kg/m2.

The diffrence between the two will ultimately be the quality pilot, his/her abilities to utilise the systems at hand, and more importantly, the ability by the pilot to utilise the systems at hand under different circumstances and how to change tactics against different opponents.

Another thing: I expect the Gripen's flight software to be far more advanced being an older system and having had more time to test it(a personal opinion). The aircrafts' power to weight ratio is VERY similar - both in the 0.90's. So not much difference there. As for radar range - no sense in picking up the enemy a 100km further, but your missiles don't have superior range as well.
To be honest: I have no interest in the J-10 or whatever it is called. It is ugly, and the shape is definitely not very advanced in terms of aerodynamics. It looks too much like the Cheetah from the back of the canopy to the start of the vertical fin - it's supposed to drop a bit there for it to be suited better for supersonic flight.

And that cockpit is antique, never mind a generation behind...

Older generally means less advanced, considering we move forward and not backwards with time, but having said that I still believe the Gripen avionics package as a whole is more advanced then the J-10's avionics.



So very wrong , if you can detect your target before he can detect you it helps you analyse the whole situation and be more tactic in the decision you make.



You really don't know what the hell you are talking about, Now it's my turn to be honest if you are going to post stupid comments like that rather keep quiet then look like a fool that knows nothing.

Not very advanced in terms of aerodynamics; thank goodness you don't design aircraft or we will be flying paper plates decorated with pink flowers.

Supposed to drop a bit there for it to be suited better for supersonic flight; the aircraft is designed to be a multi-role system with excellent manoeuvreability and high-end supersonic flight was not a concern.

Let me explain;

At about Mach 2 a typical wing design will lose about half its lift, considering that the primary measure of a design's efficiency is the lift-to-drag ratio, which means that the J-10 was designed to have good performance in the subsonic, transonic and supersonic ranges, and not be restricted to just one or two of the ranges, making it a good all round fighter at all its speed ranges.

Ram temperature is directly proportional to the square of the supersonic speed, which requires expensive materials to overcome the problem, which means a higher unit cost, higher maintenance and difficult to export.

The J-10 looks pretty decent aerodynamically; the body and tail reminds me of an F-16. The main wings reminds me of the Eurofighter. Canards instead of tail wings have their advantages. So, by the looks of it, the J-10 may compair pretty well with an F-16 and it seems in the same weight and thrust class too. But, looks can be deceiving since the devil is in the detail. Cockpit seems to have pretty good all round view.

_________________
Stay foolish; stay hungry

That is indeed usually true, but I think FCS software is one of the exceptions. Most players in the FBW FCS industry go through a pretty long learning curve (sometimes measured in decades) before they really get it right. It takes a long time to debug some of the more subtle issues with handling qualities of FBW aircraft. The basic stuff is generally very easy, but the refinement can go on almost forever. It is one of those things where just complying with the military specifications does not necessarily mean the aircraft is optimal. The Gripen FCS has continuously evolved since the first flight in 1988, and it has now achieved a very good level. In the case of J-10 and JF-17/FC-1, there will still be a lot of learning to go through.

I am more interested in WWII aircraft, statergy and tactics used than in modern individual aircraft performance.

So please correct me here.

An aircraft using its own radar gives its position away to the enemies passive counter measures. So unless backed up with a missile like the old Phoenix this radar reach can also be an own goal.

Or

I take it that one Gripen could light up its radar and data link to the others that have not and are a distance away, giving them the enemies postion etc. Which is basically what an AWACS does for the USAAF & NATO aircraft.

So does this J-10 have a data link as good as the JAS-39

wolfman get your emotions together. please learn to be cool more often. why the shouting and false accusations. was i wrong to say lets categorise in terms of so and so? did i say the gripen is inferior? if you are a die hard gripen fan it doesnt mean you should defend subjectively like saying celing is not that important bla bla. learn to see things as they are not as you are. koffiepit thanks for the observation we need more people like you on this forum

_________________
I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

False accusations , unfortunately you are the one with the false accusations, categorizing the qualities of the jets is fine but when you try and source your information from websites like Hayibo, and get all upset when we make fun of you, don't blame me.

I like the Gripen, and will in a few years be flying the aircraft, and sorrying to say this but it is one of the best aircraft in the world, if not the best in its role "lets leave that for another days topic".



If you go and do your homework, you would understand why in the Gripen and J-10's role it is not generally important to compare ceilings, please do me a favour go read up about it and then post a reply, don't let your ego do the typing.

wolfman you are a wolf for sure. you are still going on and on about hayibo you are the only one who thinks i was dead serious. qxn. why did you even bother to start this thread when you already know? you wont take negative gripen responses.it seems you are still angry at me after i shot you down on some thread a few months ago, let it go man/woman. me and koffiepit we are just telling it like it is and you dont because thats the only thing available that you will fly if ever they are going to recruit such shallow myopic human beings like you. get real. and please tell why you came at me like that with false accusations.

_________________
I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

here is some thing specifically for you. hope it will make you realise a few things because "best" i dont know maybe good.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1648

_________________
I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

Back to discussing planes please, thanks.

i feel you dean you have a point

_________________
I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

Apparently, "... ... the really cool thing about the Gripen in a dogfight is its gun, the onboard computer takes over to fly the plane and aim the gun. Not exactly proven in combat yet, but seem to work wonders on drones. ...

... and not only does the computer "fly" the aircraft in a guns battle but unless the pilot squeezes the trigger.... if there is a greater than 95% chance thata bullet will strike the radar target at any given moment; the computer fires the gun automatically."

source: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-105.html

_________________
In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!