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Both are single engined multi-role delta canard aircraft and look very similar, and knowing that China is North Korea's most important ally and that China is the biggest operator of the J-10 if tension between the West and North Korea reaches the point of war, if China was to theoretically join arms with North Korea, Western aircraft will face the J-10.

Chengdu J-10


General characteristics

Crew: 1 (basic), 2 (trainer variant)
Length: 15.5 m (50 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 9.7 m (31 ft 10 in)
Height: 4.78 m (15.7 ft)
Wing area: 39 m² (419.8 ft²)
Empty weight: 8,000–9,730 kg (17,637–21,451 lb)
Loaded weight: 18,500 kg (40,785 lb )
Useful load: 5,500 kg (9,920 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 19,277 kg (42,500 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN or Woshan WS-10A "Taihang" turbofan
Dry thrust (Estimation): 79.43 kN / 89.17 kN (17,860 lbf / 20,050 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner (Estimation): 122.5 kN/ 129.4 kN (27,557 lbf / 29,101 lbf)

Performance (Estimation):

Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude, Mach 1.2 at sea level
g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²)
Thrust/Weight (Air-to-Air Configuration): 0.98
Maximum range (without refueling): 3,400 km (2,113 miles)
Service ceiling: 20,000 m (65,600 ft)
Wing loading: 335 kg/m² (64 lb/ft²)

Combat radius (Estimation):

On hi-lo-hi mission: 2,540 km (1,370 nautical miles) with 4,000lb/1,814kg bombload and two air-to-air missiles
On lo-lo-lo mission: 1,310 km (710 nautical miles with 4,000lb/1,814kg bombload and two air-to-air missiles

Armament:

Hardpoints:
11 in total (6× under-wing, 5× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) external fuel and ordnance

Guns:
1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon

Rockets:
90mm unguided rocket pods

Missiles:
Air-to-air missiles: PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12
Air-to-surface missiles: PJ-9, YJ-9K

Bombs: laser-guided bombs (LT-2), glide bombs (LS-6) and unguided bombs

Others:
Up to 3 external fuel drop-tanks (1× under-fuselage, 2× under-wing) for extended range and loitering time

Avionics/mission pods:

BM/KG300G self-protection jamming pod
KZ900 electronic reconnaissance pod
Blue Sky navigation/attack pod
FILAT (Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting) pod

Although sourced from Wikipedia, there is a few credible references used making some of the information accurate or very close to been correct.

It seems to me that this is a very potent aircraft capable of matching any current operational fighter (including the Gripen) in a dogfight and be very capable in a BVR engagement.

What is your prediction on a clash between a J-10 and Gripen C/D......

Gripen missiles (Meteor) should have a longer range than PL-12 although some Chinese officials have claimed to have tested an 100km+ missile ... ... maybe the the R-27AE/AA-10E (130km) as carried the MKKs or a copy.

J-10 radar can detect a fighter at 150km vs 120km for Gripen. I don't have the RCSs that these numbers are based on. I expect the Gripen to have a smaller RCS than the J-10 and besides the longer max range for the J-10, I still expect the Gripen to see the J-10 first.

The info I have say they can both cue 4 MRAAMs simulateniously.

The J-10 can fly 5,000m higher but I believe being higher means looking down while the Gripen would be looking up, giving some advantage to the Gripen on detection but an advantage to the J-10 on missile launch.

Looks like J-10 can carry upto 8 MRAAMs while the Gripen has a max of 4.

The Gripen datalink is the yardstick/gold standard - don't know how much the Chinese has progressed on that.

Jamming capability ... ...???

My pick would be the Gripen based on the first to detect (when you consider the radar and RCS combined) and first to shoot having the longer range missiles.

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

my pick would be the j-10. its a super fighter it has been compared to the f-22 and came out fine.

it has an advanced radar the "zhuk f" which is one of the options, offers a detection range of 200km for a 5 m2 RCS targets with +/- 70 deg angular coverage and detection of 24 targets with simultaneous tracking of 8 targets. this is one of the options there are so many like the chineese version of the Israeli Elta EL/M-2035 multimode pulse Doppler fire control radar based on the original development by Elta Electronics Industries .etc

The fixed armament of the J-10 includes an internally-mounted Type 23-3 twin-barrel 23mm cannon, located on the port side of the front landing gear. The gas-operated cannon has a combat weight of 50.5kg, a length of 1,530mm, and a maximum rate of fire of 3,000~3,4000 rounds/minute.

The aircraft has 11 external stores stations for weapon carriage, three under each wing and five under the fuselage. The centreline under-fuselage station and the two inbound wing stations are pumped to carry drop tanks, with a 800 litre tank for the centreline station and a 1,700 litre tanks for each of the wing stations.

For air-superiority and interception missions, the J-10 could carry a mix of medium-range air-to-air missiles (MRAAM), short-range air-to-air missiles (SRAAM) and drop tanks.

Typical surface attack and interdiction weapon configuration:

2X PL-8 SRAAM + 6X 250kg LDGP bomb + 2X 1,600ltr drop tanks + 1X 800ltr drop tank
2X PL-8 SRAAM + 2X 500kg LGB + 2X 1,600ltr drop tanks + 1X 800ltr drop tank + laser targeting pod

this is what i can share for now. we all know the gripen. viva vigorous dragon

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I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

Hi
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons
Are Chinese planes more reliable than Chinese manufactured vehicles?
Just an analogy Volvo cars are known for reliability and safety.
The Chinese vehicles are known for not lasting long e.g. the taxi drivers who were on strike and asked the Chinese manufactures to take back there vehicles.

If that's the case then I wouldn't be too concerned. I know aircraft are held to a higher standard than vehicles but as I said just wondering.

Regards

You touch on a very valid point I was thinking of while I was typing my first reply. The problem is it is difficult to quantify. I believe it is the reason Pakistan and even the smaller customers like Zimbabwe and Namibia will go for non-Chinese components when they can. For example, Zimbabwe bought the K-8s without engines and went to Ukraine to get some. The Nambian F-7s have Italian radars as much as the Chinese are offering equivalents. I avoided the topic because I don’t believe anybody has quantified it – it is a minefield.

What the Pentagon said was that the Chinese military industry is benefiting/improving in this respect from the West that is investing in the general Chinese industry. They are getting the tools and methods from every European and American company that has decided to start manufacturing there. You now have China producing aircraft and aircraft components for Airbus and Boeing - and these will be produced to meet the same standards as if produced in the West - the parent companies demand that.

Consider that fact that Pakistan (with F-16s an training with US pilots) - picked a Chinese radar for the JF-17 with equivalent French, Italian, Russian and Israeli radars on offer. I am not claiming the KLJ-7 beat the competition outright - just that it performs to the satisfication of Pakistan when stacked against the Western offerings.

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

i think the chinese take shortcuts on export units from mountain bikes to the MA60. the reason their machines are bought is because they try by all means to resemble western products with the difference only being the price. if the gripen or the F16 is expensive for you then you can certainly afford the j-17/10/11 which offers more or less the same capabilities. but we should all agree they have entered the aeronautical industry with a bang. here is what some "haters' think
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defe ... itics.html

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I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

A few pictures of the Chengdu J-10 cockpit:





Looks very similar to the Eurofighter cockpit, but is no match for the Gripen layout.

really show us a picture of a gripen cockpit and explain

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I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

Gripen cockpit explained: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt8qVX-UKVA

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

The night display:



The daylight display:



Gripen HUD:



Why is it better; Magnus tells you all about it in pngwerume video.

Just a couple of loose, incoherent thoughts from my side:

According to the MTOW figures the J-10 and JAS-39 are not in the same class. It seems to me as if the J-10 is a more heavy weight fighter which should be able to do more of the same thing that the lightweight JAS-39 can do. Comparisons will also depend a lot on the respective weapon systems the aircraft are equiped with. I also note that the max operational height of the J-10 is 65000 ft in comparison with the 50000 ft of the JAS-39. What may also count is "time on station" which is determined by fuel fraction and amount of weapons carried.

In the end it will depend on which fighter is the best all-round fighter. That's why one may come to the conclusion that the Mustang must have been the best piston engined fighter of WW2: it was maybe not the best in every respect but with everyting combined, the rest of them could not do everyting that a fighter was requried to do as well as the Mustang. The Mustang could fly all the way to dodge and back, pack an effective enough punch, dogfight with the best point defence fighters, excellent all-round view. It was the best even though its liquid-cooled engine was not as damage tollerant as the Focke-Wulff's radial engine, or even if its 6 X 0.5's could not though as much lead per second as some of her cannon armed contempories, etc.

So, my contention is that the best fighter for the job is the one that can do most of the things that you require of it the best, not everyting, but the most.

Which one of the J-10 or the JAS-39 the winner will be on the basis of my contention I will gladly leave to the forum to reason out. I will read with interst.

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Stay foolish; stay hungry

Here are two videos where the Gripen 39 cockpit is shown. They where taken during LAAD in Brazil this year in the Gripen simulator that was demonstrated there. The pilot, Johan Bergkvist, is normally flying for SwAF. In the first video he demonstrates ground attack with unguided rockets (70mm) and shoots down a Mig with an IR missile (notice that the Mig:s missile envelope is always mapped on the display to aid the Gripen pilot to stay out of harms way, the SAM:s missile envelope is also mapped as a red circle). The other video is about the BVR capabilities. And yes, it's all in portuguese

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfFQURbwoeY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsFrCmAKZl8

//JG

This is not to say that the avionics of the J-10 are not advanced and I'm pretty sure they are the most advanced avionics designed by the Chinese, but my initial thoughts after a cursory comparison the cockpits of the J-10 and the Gripen is that the Gripen is far more advanced.

The screens of the J-10 look like monochrome CRTs, with substantial mechanical primary flight instrumentation. The Gripen has three large colour multi function displays and no traditional and dedicated standby flight instruments. SAAB has also invested heavily in the man-machine interface.

The cockpit of the J-10 looks a generation behind that of the Gripen.

first and foremost looks can be deceiving. what does it mean when one say the cockpit is advanced? j-10 has a superior radar compared to the gripen. j-10 has LCDs too. i think they all look beautiful the difference is another has bigger screens , fewer screens.

we can reach an agreement on which is a better fighter if we categorise

Navigation
Radar ( coverage...)
Range( max possible...)
defensive electronics
Speed (acceleration, max possible...0
Ceiling (rate of climb...)
Maneuvarability
Armament
Role(s)

lets use these categories and others i have not mentioned to determine which is a better fighter. i m sure we can conclude in no time

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I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise