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PostPosted: 07 May 2007, 16:04 
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Sent them Delta. Constructive analysis most welcome from you. I have been collating data on this topic for years and have a little info from various sources that I will dig up and post.


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PostPosted: 08 May 2007, 11:56 
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Hi LE, I tried to reply but your e-mail bounced.


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PostPosted: 08 May 2007, 13:35 
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Hi delta, got you message thank you. Sent a reply.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2007, 15:00 
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Deltawingman wrote:
leading edge wrote:
Deltawingman, do you know anything about a project called Atar Plus? I've seen it mentioned on the CSIR website.


All I know is that some atar 9K-50 turbine blades were cast as a technology excercise. By using single crystal casting technology the blades could be made to withstand higher turbine inlet temperatures and hence get more thrust. Not much more but a bit more.

Casting turbine blades is trickier than might first appear. You cannot just use an old one as a mold, as when you cast one, it shrinks on cooling and then you land up with a smaller blade than the template. I think some problems of that sort made "reverse engineering" engines an expensive exercise that might not have been worth the effort in the end. I suspect that the Russian engine excercise put an end to experiments on developing the Atar, but that is just my guess. My opinion at the time was that the russian engine (Modified R-33D) was also not worthwhile because it was a lot of effort for reletively little gain, and so it proved.


Have finally found this tidbit on the ATAR Plus. Makes sense as I have seen the ATAR Plus mentioned at the CSIR website..

Quote:
Atar Plus - joint development with ITP and Denel, new compressor, new turbine, new electronics.


Now, with a redesigned compressor and new turbine, that could only mean more thrust. I imagine one of the goals would have been a higher PR, as the 9K50 has a rather modest figure in that department. The new electronics would probably, amongst other things, been done to improve SFC.

Deltawingman, I haven't forgotten your request. I have had a rather busy end to the financial year. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009, 15:44 
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An interesting post at the AFM site has some info on the Carver, as well as a photo of the design team!

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 291&page=2


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009, 21:54 
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Thanks Spice - that's pretty awesome. I worked with Kobus Duvenhage a few years agon in Centurion (if it is the same one, with a name like that I'm pretty sure he's the same guy).

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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009, 09:34 
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Those aircraft models look like concept designs and nothing more. A concept or pipe dream is still light years away from an actual flying prototype, let alone a production model. Between a concept and a production model a lot, and I mean a lot, of engineering work still needs to be done which may require some radical changes to the pipe dream concept. So, it is admirable that a bunch of people at Denel were looking at some new aircraft designs but not too much can be made of it since a concept design is still very far removed from a real flying production aircraft in terms of money, practicality and production capability.

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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009, 11:18 
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The project "went black" (to use an Americanism) very early in its history, so its not surprising at all that only these initial concepts are in the public domain.
How much further it got by the time it was cancelled is not known. Those who know are not talking and those who don't, don't.
We will just have to wait until the secret status of the files and other material is revoked or expires.


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2009, 09:44 
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koffiepit wrote:
Those aircraft models look like concept designs and nothing more. A concept or pipe dream is still light years away from an actual flying prototype, let alone a production model. Between a concept and a production model a lot, and I mean a lot, of engineering work still needs to be done which may require some radical changes to the pipe dream concept. So, it is admirable that a bunch of people at Denel were looking at some new aircraft designs but not too much can be made of it since a concept design is still very far removed from a real flying production aircraft in terms of money, practicality and production capability.


Koffiepit, those are only line drawings and various artwork, based on models shown at defence expo's. The technical work and how far the engineering progressed we'll have to wait for.

But there were certainly related projects, with their own codenames, initiated to bring the various avionic, structural, powerplant and weapon strands together.

Nobody could see in the late eighties that communism and apartheid would collapse within a couple of years.


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2009, 09:56 
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Anybody seen Deltawingman recently?


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2009, 16:33 
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So it appears that the Chief Designer of the Carver was David Fabish, who had previously worked for Dassault. The project officer also gives a nice description, but I'm struggling to figure out how to post images or scans on this forum...


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2009, 05:31 
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leading edge wrote:
... but I'm struggling to figure out how to post images or scans on this forum...


Instructions to upload photos can be found at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=379

Alternatively, you can email them to me and I'll upload them. :smt023


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2009, 13:57 
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Posted by Bladerunner at the AFM forums. Scanned from the book Cheetah:Gaurdian of our Nation. It gives a basic overview of the Carver project as well as a basic line drawing and a photo of the Carver design team standing in front of what appears to be aircraft frames in construction on a jig.

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 09 May 2009, 16:53 
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A funny thing I remember about David Faibish was that he always wore white socks.

One of the things the article has wrong is that Tunny was never a Carver replacement. It was done in parallel and it was the interim that would be avaliable long before Carver could. Most of Tunny was done in Israel and (my conjecture) is that the work was hidden behind the Nammer project. Look at a contemporary Janes and you can see that with the exception of the preported engine the Nammer is the Cheetah C.

. As things went on Carver evolved to a Twin when Gen van Loggerenberg came into the Chief of the Airforce job and he insisted on a twin, mainly because he felt we needed something with the carrying capacity of a Buccanneer which was being retired at the time. After that it sort of fizzled into various downgrades where some technologies developed for Carver eventually resulted in the R33 retrofit into an F1 and a Cheetah and the Advanced Combat Wing that I did the aerodynamic design for.


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 Post subject: Re: Project Cava?
PostPosted: 11 May 2009, 14:04 
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What is that jig behind the Carver design team holding? It looks like a fuselage structural piece....

And why would the team be posing in front of it? Were structural sub-assemblies of the Carver ever manufactured?


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