The SAAF Forum

wow, pakistan has a massive military(from what i thought) silly me...makes me sad that we are mothballing equipment and removing missiles.

when it comes to building fighters the Chinese are ahead of the Japanese because the latter still gets a lot of help from general dynamics and Lockheed martin. Lockheed martin contributed 40% to the development of the Mitsubishi f2 multi role fighter whereas k8, fc1 are truly Chinese aircraft.

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I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

See you at Farnborough:

Confirmation the Thunder will be a Farnborough:

Farnborough - Aircraft - Static Aircraft Listings

and will be flying in PAF colours: http://www.farnborough.com/Site/Content ... aspx?Z=283

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

PAF should be invited to participate at the durban air show on 17 July 2010 so that the SA ministry of defence get a climpse of what a truly front line fighter is like.

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I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

Preps at Farnbarough 2010

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

Try to read the paragraph above the photo showing a "fuller" array of weapons compared to previous images, describing the Integrated Avionics System, somewhere towards the bottom it says,
I spoke to a PAF pilot and technician at Farnborough and yes, that statement mean FC-1s can share real-time radar data. I did not think of asking "how many buddies can share at a time".



The pilot also said the TWR is greater than 1.1. I did not ask "carry how many tonnes". With the Chinese testing their own version of the RD-93 said to have 10% more thrust and openly offering to help the Russians improve the RD-93, I suspect they are already upgrading the RD-93 before installing them.

The take-off run on the video of the Thunder departing from Farnborough is about 850m. Assuming full fuel capacity, it would have been carrying 11,500kg ≈ 90% of its maximum load of 12,700kg.

Here is the take-off video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJC8v44t_qM

I am impressed.

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

Hi, pn

thanks for sharing this stuff. This seems like an impressive fighter. In your opinion, in what respects are the SAAF Gripen C -model better than the JF-17 and in what respects are the Gripen behind the JF-17?

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Stay foolish; stay hungry

I would say the Gripen is the standard/benchmark, so all we can hope for is the JF-17 approaching the Gripen.

Gripen has "four high-bandwidth, two-way datalinks" so it can communicate with four buddies. It seems the Thunder can work with only two.

I am not sure of the turn-rates for the Thunder. We have videos of it doing a full 360 in about 20 seconds. I believe the Gripen can better that.

The PL-5EII that the Chinese are mating with the Thunder has a smokeless motor; two-colour, multi-element, dual band detector and a laser proximity fuse. IRIS-T is superb and should be better than this so the PL-5EII still would not be a match.

PS-0/5A will do 120km on a 5sqm target. The KLJ-7 ≥ 105km as per their brochure. The PAF requirement was for 110km and they said the radar fully met their requirements.

I would say TWR and costs advantage go to the FC-1.

The Chinese are also selling a jamming pod with the Thunder. This might indicate a weakiness with it on-board systems for that tasks.

I do believe, on home turf, with ground radar network helping with situational awareness the Thunder should be a credible rival for the Gripen.

I however believe a lot of the above numbers are superficial - there would be finer details to the systems that can be exploited by either side.

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

In this video, a Gripen does a sustained 360 in 16 seconds. 3:32-3:48. Average turn rate 22.5 deg/sec. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACDGkNa77Rs


I would guess the (presumably) lower drag of the Gripen will nullify any TWR advantages the JF-17 might have.

The video below shows the new F7 wing display pilot perform a loop right after take off. I've witnessed this myself at Såtenäs this year, quite impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_pkxzYqh7M

You could be right - with all that thrust, they struggled to push the Thunder to Mach 1.8 - I believe it points to a not so aerodynamic design - I am still trying to figure out and very a few things.

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In God I trust, everyone else bring your data!

I believe the JF-17 top speed, as well as Gripens top speed is mostly due to inlet design. What speaks for a lower drag on the Gripen is its adjustable canards, its high leading edge sweep angle, its optimal cross sectional area ruling and its long slender and aerodynamically clean tail section.

The JF-17 has a rather draggy tail section, with large elevators and ventral fins. The LEX's on JF-17 have limited use, and most of the time they are just dead weight and create unwanted drag.

With that said, the JF-17 is certainly a capable aircraft and offers good maneuverability, good climb rate and good acceleration. It also carries modern avionics, at a relatively low price. It's a shame it didn't perform at Farnborough.

Thank you very much.



Thank you very much for the information you have posted in the last couple of days. I think these days speed doesnt necessarily mean life (mig25 could outrun missiles) Mach 1.8 is intentional for SU34/F/A-18C/D & J17 because they can carry long range AAMs/SAMs like sd10/exocet. etc also dogfighting is done slower speeds and the max speeds are only achieved when the plane is carrying nothing so you dont really need mach 2.5

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I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise

The Exocet missile is a Anti-ship missile and is of absolutley no use in the SAM or AAM dept. It is in the same cat as the US Harpoon and Chinese Yingji missiles.

They keep getting slower. F35A lightning. Top speed. Mach 1.67. afterburner 191 kN.(thunder-84 kN) i dont think it has to do with the aerodyanmic design its intentional.

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I have always believed if done right , armed robbery doesn't have to be a totally unpleasant experience- Brad Pitt as J.D in Thelma and Louise