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 Post subject: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 10:14 
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Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 10:00
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Hi all :)
I'm a French military aviation enthousiast and is currently writing history of Alouette III "under uniform" through the world, with a friend of mine, a former French land forces pilot.
SAAF has been a very important user of "alo", and our book will speak widely of this.
But one question is for us a problem : I read some pages about "G-car" (Alo with machine gun) and "K-car" (Alo with gun), incorporated in "fire forces", but I couldn't determine exactly if these Alo armed versions were created in Rhodesian air force or SAAF ?
We know SAAF helos and crews widely participated in RhAF operations, but did SAAF use G-cars and K-cars in its own operations ?
If someone could help us about this...
Whatever, congratulations for your excellent forum I use to visit regularly =D>


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 11:27 
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Joined: 19 Oct 2005, 12:39
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Location: United Kingdom
The Alouette III's were armed either with machine guns or 20mm cannons.

The main 20mm cannon used was the Mauser MG-151/20 (20x82mm) This was a German WWII weapon who the French then manufactured/worked on after WWII and mounted them as door guns on their helicopters during the Algerian Conflict.

Also used by the SAAF was the GA 1 whose design is based on the MG-151/20 and also fires the 20x82mm round

The Vampire 20mm cannons were Hispano and fired the 20x110mm round

If you look at the French mounting for the 20mm you can see it is the same one used later by the SAAF and RhAF

Magnus Malan and Co visited Algeria during the conflict so ........


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 11:31 
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Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 17:19
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You are correct that many SAAF Alo IIIs (and Alo IIs) served in Rhodesia.

SAAF Alo III helicopters and crew were initially seconded to the SA Police and attached to 7 Sqn (RhAF). Many of the Alo IIIs were later returned to the SAAF.

The Rhodesians developed the G-Car (troop carrying) and K-Car (cannon equipped) Alo IIIs. The G-Car was not equipped with a machine-gun, unless you count that which was carried by the troops. As such, it was a Rhodesian concept and not SAAF.

The SAAF later also equipped the Alo III with cannon during the Border War, but the designation "G-Car" and "K-Car" is Rhodesian.


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 11:41 
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007, 16:57
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Location: ILS RWY19, FACT (Cape Town)
Some pics from W407594F ... :D

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Cheers

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Brent Best


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 12:31 
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Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 10:00
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Thank you all three, especially Dean :wink:
I've got answer to my question : G and K-cars are rhodesian concepts !
Thank you too for pics.
Best regards from France :smt023


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 16:05 
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Glad to have helped, let us know when your book has been published. :D


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 22:13 
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With pleasure, Dean :wink:
There will be good pages (I hope !) on South African, Rhodesia and countries using Alouette III in this area, of course 8)
Writing this, I realized that my co-writer, "Gaubs", sent a post on this forum some months ago, about "rarely seen" Alouette III, with one of his profiles (a K-car) to show his work ...
He was especially searching for rarely seen pics of Alouette III : if someone has some good pictures of SAAF or RhAF Alouette III in operations, we will be very interested to use them in our book.
Just let us know ... :roll:
Just to say too that all chapters about foreign Alouette III users, including SAAF and RRAF/RhAF, will include colour profiles, pictures as possible and list of aircraft.
Thank you once again for your kind help :smt023 :smt023
All the best


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 01 May 2010, 11:51 
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004, 23:09
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Location: UK
Dean wrote:
You are correct that many SAAF Alo IIIs (and Alo IIs) served in Rhodesia.

The Rhodesians developed G-Car (troop carrying) and K-Car (cannon equipped) Alo IIIs. The G-Car was not equipped with a machine-gun, unless you count that which was carried by the troops. As such, it was a Rhodesian concept and not SAAF.

.


The "G-Car" carried twin mounted Browning .303 machine guns towards the end of the war, prior to this it had placements for the MAG 7.62mm. The Browning had a higher rate of fire but had a reputation for jamming thus the need to fit them in pairs. They were fitted to a mounting which allowed the expended cartidge cases and links to be captured and also incorporated a small French reflector sight for improved accuracy. Other changes were that the front two passenger seats were reversed to allow more floor space and an anti-Strela type shroud was fitted over the jet pipe which dispersed the hot gases into the rotor downwash. (This of course was later adapted by all ALO3's.)

The "K-Car" was copied from the Portuguese ALO3's in Mozambique which were armed with 20mm canon. Some of these may even have found there way into Rhodesian service.

There was also the Z-Car which was used for trooping and general purpose and was unarmed. These were the SAAF helicopters.

Just for interest they were pronounced Zed, Gee and Kay.

Cheers,
Paul


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 02 May 2010, 09:52 
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Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 10:00
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Hi Paul,
I read about "dalmatian mounting" of 4 Browing on some G-cars : was it just a test ?
I also read that 2 SAAF Alo3 using 2 AS12 air to ground missiles in Angola, do you know about this use ?
I knew about Z-car, but would you confirm "B-cars" was for police (land forces ?) ground vehicules, please ?
Whatever, think you for your help :smt023
Best regards from France :P


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 02 May 2010, 13:13 
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008, 11:50
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SA Police vehicle registration plates start with "B" but I don't know if the expression "B-Car" was widely used.
Military vehicle registration numbers used to start with "R" but they changed to "M", I think sometime in the early 1990s.


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 02 May 2010, 13:19 
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Joined: 19 Oct 2005, 12:39
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Location: United Kingdom
During the time of the Rhodesain conflict the SAPolice vehicle number plates were SAP this was only changed to the B type plates in the late 1970's very early. 1980's.

For deniablility reasons SAPolice members at times also wore Rhodesian uniforms and not the SAPolice camoflauge uniform.


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 02 May 2010, 14:19 
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007, 16:57
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Location: ILS RWY19, FACT (Cape Town)
Photo from W407594F showing a police Bedford in Rhodesia with a SAP number plate.

Image

Cheers

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Brent Best


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 02 May 2010, 14:47 
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 14:27
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Location: Durban by the Sea
There is a gunship in the SAAF Museum!

Members with more knowledge please undate, I cannot remember the details, I was under pressure from the "BOSS" :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 02 May 2010, 14:59 
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Joined: 27 Aug 2009, 12:38
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Location: Pretoria
This is the only photo I have of the Allo at the Swartkop Air force Museum, unfortuanatly I do not have much info of this allo

Image


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 Post subject: Re: G-car and K-car
PostPosted: 02 May 2010, 15:32 
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004, 23:09
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Location: UK
bépé wrote:
Hi Paul,
I read about "dalmatian mounting" of 4 Browing on some G-cars : was it just a test ?
I also read that 2 SAAF Alo3 using 2 AS12 air to ground missiles in Angola, do you know about this use ?
I knew about Z-car, but would you confirm "B-cars" was for police (land forces ?) ground vehicules, please ?
Whatever, think you for your help :smt023
Best regards from France :P


My last post "disappeared" so I'll try again..........

Yes, B-Cars were police cars. See............ http://www.rhodesianforces.org/BSAPvehicles.htm

As far as I'm aware, the SAAF never had AS.12 missiles. (They had the AS.11.) I remember reading something about Angolan ALO3's firing AS.12 missiles but not the SAAF. This is not to say that it never happened as the SAAF tried fitting everything, including the kitchen sink :mrgreen: They even tried fitting SNEB 37mm rockets at one stage which almost had disasterious results due to the necesity of the cooling effect from fast moving jets on the launch tubes. The plastic fins melted and the subsequent rockets launched flew in every possible direction!? :o

The Dalmation Project involved fitting four Mk2 .303 Browning machine-guns which were slaved to a remote hand operated sighting and hydraulic driver system called the "Kat Oog" which is afrikaans for cats eye. It was used in anger towards the end of the war and killed 31 insurgents during the first week of testing.

If you ever travel across the channel I may be able to introduce you to someone involved with the Dalmation Project. I also have some photo's of the second ALO3 proto-type should you be interested.

Cheers,
Paul


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