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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 12:34 
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I know the list of lost aircraft is long but how many was due to pure dogfighting.

SAAF vs Angolan/Cuban


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 12:50 
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I can't produce a list right now, but I do know it's a very low number. Probably less than ten aircraft lost on all sides due to air-to-air action.


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 12:29 
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On SAAF side - Only one as far as I know. F1 CZ damaged by missile from Mig 23. Landed at Rhundu airbase and recieved more damage Due to runway over-run. Were later either fixed back to flying condition or used for spares, can't remember now...

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 17:29 
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boertjie wrote:
On SAAF side - Only one as far as I know. F1 CZ damaged by missile from Mig 23. Landed at Rhundu airbase and recieved more damage Due to runway over-run. Were later either fixed back to flying condition or used for spares, can't remember now...


It was Mirage F1CZ 206. Her rear fuselage was mated to 205's front fuselage that was damaged in an fire if I am not mistaken. Became known as 205 and a half. Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this fact. Also don't remember another direct air-to-air loss on the SAAF side.

On the Angolan side Two Mig 21's shot down (F1CZ kills). Six/four(?) helicopters (Hip/Hind) by Impala's. Might be more but can't recall now.

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 17:32 
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Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 17:41 
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mamba wrote:
It was Mirage F1CZ 206. Her rear fuselage was mated to 205's front fuselage that was damaged in an fire if I am not mistaken. Became known as 205 and a half. Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this fact.

Correct, 205 caught fire landing at Langebaanweg on 8 Feb 1985, so was rebuilt using rear of 206.

mamba wrote:
On the Angolan side Two Mig 21's shot down (F1CZ kills). Six/four(?) helicopters (Hip/Hind) by Impala's. Might be more but can't recall now.


Air/air victories during the Bush War:

7 November 1980 Force Down 1 An-26 Angola Impala Mk II
8July 1981* F.Pretorius Force Down 1 MiG-17F Mozambique 1 SqnMirage F1AZ
8July 1981* H.Louw Force Down 1 MiG-17F Mozambique 1 SqnMirage F1AZ
6 November 1981 J.Rankin 30mm 1 Mig 21MF Angola 3 Sqn Mirage F1CZ
May 1982 30mm 1 Mi-8 Angola Mirage F1AZ
5 Oct 1982 J. Rankin 30mm 1 Mig 21 Angola 3 Sqn Mirage F1CZ
27 Sep 1985 Leon Mare 30mm 1 Mi-25 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
27 Sep 1985 Pine Pienaar 30mm 1 MI-25 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
29 Sep 1985 Kevin Truter 30mm 1 Mi-17 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
29 Sep 1985 Wayne Westoby 30mm 1 Mi-17 & 1 Mi-25 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
29 Sep 1985 Nefie van den Heever 30mm 1 Mi-25 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
5 October 1985 30mm 1 MiG-21 Angola 1 Sqn Mirage F1AZ
7 December 1985 V-3B 1 An-26 Angola 1 Sqn Mirage F1CZ
1986 20mm 1 Mi-8 Angola SA.316

*Shared force down.

The above is not official, open to correction (lots!) and I strongly suspect the second MiG-21 managed to return to base, albeit damaged. Doubt a third MiG-21 was claimed.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 09:23 
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5 October 1985 30mm 1 MiG-21 Angola 1 Sqn Mirage F1AZ


Do you have more details on this one.
Was this air- to- air?


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 12:08 
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Mars wrote:
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5 October 1985 30mm 1 MiG-21 Angola 1 Sqn Mirage F1AZ


Do you have more details on this one.
Was this air- to- air?

That's the one I have my doubts about.

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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 13:49 
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Hi. The second Mig 21 landed damaged to such an extent that it was scrapped.
That Mig 17 was the Bomba defection that was escorted in, it was not 'forced down' as far as I know.
Stefaan


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 09:50 
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It would be interesting to know how many rounds of 30mm was expended to bring the Mig down. Must be one of the "cheaper" victories :wink:


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 18:47 
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Dean wrote:
mamba wrote:
It was Mirage F1CZ 206. Her rear fuselage was mated to 205's front fuselage that was damaged in an fire if I am not mistaken. Became known as 205 and a half. Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this fact.

Correct, 205 caught fire landing at Langebaanweg on 8 Feb 1985, so was rebuilt using rear of 206.

mamba wrote:
On the Angolan side Two Mig 21's shot down (F1CZ kills). Six/four(?) helicopters (Hip/Hind) by Impala's. Might be more but can't recall now.


Air/air victories during the Bush War:

7 November 1980 Force Down 1 An-26 Angola Impala Mk II
8July 1981* F.Pretorius Force Down 1 MiG-17F Mozambique 1 SqnMirage F1AZ
8July 1981* H.Louw Force Down 1 MiG-17F Mozambique 1 SqnMirage F1AZ
6 November 1981 J.Rankin 30mm 1 Mig 21MF Angola 3 Sqn Mirage F1CZ
May 1982 30mm 1 Mi-8 Angola Mirage F1AZ
5 Oct 1982 J. Rankin 30mm 1 Mig 21 Angola 3 Sqn Mirage F1CZ
27 Sep 1985 Leon Mare 30mm 1 Mi-25 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
27 Sep 1985 Pine Pienaar 30mm 1 MI-25 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
29 Sep 1985 Kevin Truter 30mm 1 Mi-17 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
29 Sep 1985 Wayne Westoby 30mm 1 Mi-17 & 1 Mi-25 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
29 Sep 1985 Nefie van den Heever 30mm 1 Mi-25 Angola 4 Sqn Impala MkII
5 October 1985 30mm 1 MiG-21 Angola 1 Sqn Mirage F1AZ
7 December 1985 V-3B 1 An-26 Angola 1 Sqn Mirage F1CZ
1986 20mm 1 Mi-8 Angola SA.316

*Shared force down.

The above is not official, open to correction (lots!) and I strongly suspect the second MiG-21 managed to return to base, albeit damaged. Doubt a third MiG-21 was claimed.


Second Mig was possibly not a kill but rather damaged. Lionel Reid is putting together a book with input form Cuban pilots and has researched this and it seems likely not a kill. Never heard of the 3rd MiG. Also last two are new to me. Agreed that MiG-17 was not a force down - some thoughts that it was a planned defection....anyway, fun to speculate.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 09:33 
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Okay guys, let's set the record straight quickly. We have two confirmed Mig-21 kills with gun camera footage of both events ending with the Mig in a fireball. Both times J. Rankin was at the controls and flying a F1CZ (213 & 203). The kills happened in 1981 and 1983 respectively.

Kill no1:
Image

Kill no.2:
Image

I have never heard nor read about the third F1AZ Mig "kill" in 1985 though, so I suspect that might be inaccurate. There were a few close but no cigar meetings where the SAAF aircraft could not get into a position to engage the Angolan Mig or the missiles fired exploded behind the aircraft.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 10:11 
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Hi.
Another inaccurate fact.
May 1982 30mm 1 Mi-8 Angola Mirage F1AZ was Martin Louw and John Inngs strafing the Mi-8 on the ground. On 13 May. Not a dogfight. Also 3 sqdn, F1 CZ. I know as it was on Martins birthday.His camera was US but John confirmed it.

There was no 3rd kill. The missile exploded behind the Mig.

The 2nd fireball Mig was the one that managed to land and was then scrapped. It was apparently dropping the Fuel tank that ignited when the rounds hit it and not the Mig that fire-balled.

Stefaan


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 12:33 
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Stefaan wrote:

The 2nd fireball Mig was the one that managed to land and was then scrapped. It was apparently dropping the Fuel tank that ignited when the rounds hit it and not the Mig that fire-balled.



There were two Migs that day. The first Mig flying as wingman was damaged by a Matra 550 which exploded close to the aircraft's tailpipe. That aircraft did make it back to base but could not lower the UC so was further damaged upon landing. I am pretty sure that is the one that was scrapped.

The second Mig whom was the leader of the formation was hit with 30mm cannon fire and he exploded in the air. He was the second and last confirmed Mig kill of the war. I have provided the gun camera footage in my previous post.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 13:09 
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Hi Mamba.
Cobus saw that Mig that had the fireball emerge beyond the fireball. That pilot landed and I believe is in contact with Lionel doing his book on the Air war.
The fireball was the drop tank exploding as it left the a/c.
Lets wait till Lionel Reids book comes out to find out in detail as to what happened. He is in direct contact with the pilots.


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