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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2019, 08:25 
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Joined: 20 Nov 2004, 00:57
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HI All

I am back

Firstly, Compliments to the new year.

Now to busines
Our judging system is based on the skills and artistic ability of the modeler. Thus, we judge on how the model was built, Painted, decalled and weathered. We do not just accuracy as not everybody is an expert in every subject. The judging system and score sheets has been designed in such a way that basically everybody can pick one up and judge a model after a quick briefing on how it works.

On the entry form, there is a section where the modeler specifies on the complexity/modifications of the model.
These options include
1. Out of box (no modifications etc)
2. Lightly modified (basic additions like resin wheels, some photo etch etc.)
3. heavily modified (scratchbuilding some areas like open acces pannel, wheel wells, cockpits etc)
4. Scratchbuilt (No kit, completely built from scratch)

Currently, the Judge has to give a point out of 10 if the modeler has achieved his objective as set out on the score sheets with the above points included. I have been looking at this part and I am busy for the last few months changing the scoring on this slightly to take in effect the effort done depending on the type of modifications.
Say, you have two spitfires, same kit, built exactly the same. One is OOB and the the other has been modified to include resin wheels and a photo Etch cockpit. Both scored for argument sake 90% on judging. Which one should win? Practically the one that a bit more effort has been put in should win.
Therefore, the change I am busy looking at is to have a separate judging point based on the complexity of the build, and the modified model will then score higher than the OOB model.

In our club,we don't see a lot of scratch building unlike other clubs. The only person that does a lot of Scratch building is Pat, who scratchbuilds warships from actual blueprints.(BTW, his ships are amazing, but takes a couple of years to finish one). We try to have a number of workshops during the year, but also depends on people willing to actually host the workshops. In the past workshops was arranged, but the person doing the workshops pulled out on the last minute.

This year we want to approach this slightly differently as we are going to try and focus a bit more on the youth and bringing them into a modelling. We had some discussions with guys on the East Rand, during December, who want to bring a number of kids to the club. So this year the workshops will actually go back to the basics of modelling and where to start. From there we will do actual builds with the kids at the club and possibly start a small mentorship program.

Regarding the prizes, during last year we approached a number of people on what prizes to give for the open category, and the only answer was Cash or models. We did contemplate a membership prize as well but that was rejected by the number of people asked. In fact, the person that won the senior category was not interested in joining in the club at all as per what we have heard from people that previous dealing with him. Apparently(hearsay) he is more interested in entering competitions and win prizes, and will not travel to club meets(travel costs as per the arguments, although he lives close by).

One thing that did stand out in the past and in a way this competition is that we get people that enter MOY just to win prizes. These members joins the club, pay their subscription and then will never be seen again until MOY. This happens year after year. We are looking at ways to handle this in the future, as it is unfair to the members that are at the club meets during the course of the year. But we will see what we need to do and bring this up at the next AGM and hear the members opinions on this.

Any feedback to better the club and competitions is welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2019, 22:02 
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Joined: 20 Aug 2010, 14:40
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HP_Exarkun wrote:
HI All

Currently, the Judge has to give a point out of 10 if the modeler has achieved his objective as set out on the score sheets with the above points included. I have been looking at this part and I am busy for the last few months changing the scoring on this slightly to take in effect the effort done depending on the type of modifications.
Say, you have two spitfires, same kit, built exactly the same. One is OOB and the the other has been modified to include resin wheels and a photo Etch cockpit. Both scored for argument sake 90% on judging. Which one should win? Practically the one that a bit more effort has been put in should win.
Therefore, the change I am busy looking at is to have a separate judging point based on the complexity of the build, and the modified model will then score higher than the OOB model.



Hi Herman

You might have to keep complexity section as is or possibly drop it altogether for the following reasons:

1) Aftermarket products are expensive, and can discourage the spirit of the competition. In the scenario it would mean the modeller who spent the most wins. There is a direct correlation between the number of models on the table versus the cost to build those models.

2) Putting more effort into a model does not necessarily mean that it results in a better model. It also implies that skill is also being judged. for example, a new modeller with less developed skills may put more effort into a model than a experienced modeller with greater skill who builds models effortlessly.

3) Its difficult to to measure effort between dissimilar models.

Quote:
Regarding the prizes, during last year we approached a number of people on what prizes to give for the open category, and the only answer was Cash or models. We did contemplate a membership prize as well but that was rejected by the number of people asked. In fact, the person that won the senior category was not interested in joining in the club at all as per what we have heard from people that previous dealing with him. Apparently(hearsay) he is more interested in entering competitions and win prizes, and will not travel to club meets(travel costs as per the arguments, although he lives close by).


What were the reasons given for membership being rejected as a prize?

Possibly the open category needs to be broken into age groups and experience levels. When models are entered someone would need to look at the model and categorise it within a skill level. The intention being to encourage new modellers and isolate the prize hunters. Whilst contrary to the points about the idea would be to ensure a degree of control so that the intended entrants are acknowledged for there efforts.

Quote:
One thing that did stand out in the past and in a way this competition is that we get people that enter MOY just to win prizes. These members joins the club, pay their subscription and then will never be seen again until MOY. This happens year after year. We are looking at ways to handle this in the future, as it is unfair to the members that are at the club meets during the course of the year. But we will see what we need to do and bring this up at the next AGM and hear the members opinions on this.


Yeah, this a tough one.


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 07:05 
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I can see the difficulty of trying to bring new blood into the hobby, but exclude the trophy hunters who do not want to contribute to the hobby/club.

As the competition is organised by GRSM, then only their members should be eligible to win prizes. Have a category for non-members, but those entrants can only enter once to win prizes, then they must become members to enter the following year. Non-member entrants below/above a certain age can also enter every year to win membership and smaller prizes. :?:

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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 14:01 
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Hey HP,

Happy New Year :)

The way I understand it is that model clubs are essentially social organisations. Their function being to provide a meeting place for individuals to meet, discuss and enjoy their hobby.
The issue you mentioned regarding people who pay their subs and are then never seen until the MOY has been around for a number of decades. I recall reading correspondence that must have taken place over twenty years ago where this very issue was raised by a member of another model club.

The only way you're ever going to stop it is by changing the rules governing the entry requirements for competitions.

I sometimes wonder if there could not be a space for scratchbuilding to have it's own separate category. I understand what you are Mars have said regarding there not being a lot of scratchbuilding in your club but I still can not help but wonder if we're not in some sort of self limiting cycle where because nobody does it, it's not catered for and then because it's not catered for, nobody does it - If that makes any kind of sense.

Regarding the judging system and the two Spitfires you mentioned, I agree with you and I think it's reasonable and fair to award points based on extra effort and risk undertaken by the modeller but on the other side of the coin, and in addition to the points raised by Mars, I think one should also be cognisant of the potential for resin and photo-etched parts to actually make a model easier to build.

Regards,
Stratobat

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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 21:01 
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Joined: 20 Aug 2010, 14:40
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The converse view is that MOY does tend to pull old members out the wood work.

One also has to consider that there may be legitimate reasons as to why some members can only attend a few meetings a year. Quite a few of the members are professionals and their time is scarce.

In the end I would still rather see more models on the table than less.


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 10:58 
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Mars wrote:
The converse view is that MOY does tend to pull old members out the wood work.

One also has to consider that there may be legitimate reasons as to why some members can only attend a few meetings a year. Quite a few of the members are professionals and their time is scarce.

In the end I would still rather see more models on the table than less.

I know there are some member that cannot attend every single meeting. I am not talking about them. We also have some long distance members who cannot attend.

Unfortunately what I am talking about as that there are members who do not want to attend any club meetings at all. Their only reason for their membership is to enter competitions to win prizes.
We had a case with the last MOY where a member said he rather stay at home than come to a club meeting as he sees that as a waste of time. Said member contacted me prior to competition to find out which classes was not entered yet, as he wants to enter those classes then. That information was not given, and he was upset about it. He did eventually enter some classes, but wanted to change some of his entries after he heard other people entered the same class(not sure where he got that info from)

We have a few other cases as well, and a lot of history of this and to me that is unfair to the guys attending all the meetings or some meetings during the year.

I also think we are losing the spirit of this hobby and possibly the real reason why we are doing this. We are getting to focused on competitions in the hobby. This we can see across the world and with other clubs. Why do we do this hobby? Just to win prizes or to actually doing something that we love.

This is why we the current committee is working on bringing back why we do this. One of the reason also why we started the changes on how MOY is being done by involving outside people to see what the hobby is about. Yes, there is still the competition aspect of it, but we want MOY to grow bigger than that. We want MOY to be a celebration of the clubs achievements and show case what our members are doing.

It is supposed to be all about the members and enjoying the day together. And that is the reason why I feel that guys that just join GRSM to participate in MOY only is a slap in the face for the rest of the members.

Stratobat wrote:
I sometimes wonder if there could not be a space for scratchbuilding to have it's own separate category. I understand what you are Mars have said regarding there not being a lot of scratchbuilding in your club but I still can not help but wonder if we're not in some sort of self limiting cycle where because nobody does it, it's not catered for and then because it's not catered for, nobody does it - If that makes any kind of sense.


Nope, there is no basic interest in scratch building, it is more what people want to build. We have quite a few other categories in MOY that is not being entered in, because there is no interest. But we keep them open just in case. The interest in our club is more WWII and mostly aircraft. There is some interest in Figures, dioramas etc, but the biggest contender each year at MOY is aircraft.

Just to give you an idea.
For the 142 entries we received 84 was aircraft which is 59% of the entries
17 Armor entries 11.9%
7 Rotorcraft 4.9%
1 ship 0.7%
and the rest was dioramas figure and civilian vehicles basically

Since I have started running the competitions 6 years ago, this on average what we get every year.
We had one scratch build entry in that time frame which was one of Pat's Ships.

IN the past we also had polls regarding on what members want to see, and scratch building was on it. It did not even reach the top 20 on the item lists that we had.

Stratobat wrote:
Regarding the judging system and the two Spitfires you mentioned, I agree with you and I think it's reasonable and fair to award points based on extra effort and risk undertaken by the modeller but on the other side of the coin, and in addition to the points raised by Mars, I think one should also be cognisant of the potential for resin and photo-etched parts to actually make a model easier to build.


That is one of the reason why I have not implemented it yet. Still in two minds on this. Maybe what I should is open up a topic regarding judging and run through the judging documents with you all and then we can see if it can be improved or left as is.

Dean wrote:
I can see the difficulty of trying to bring new blood into the hobby, but exclude the trophy hunters who do not want to contribute to the hobby/club.

As the competition is organised by GRSM, then only their members should be eligible to win prizes. Have a category for non-members, but those entrants can only enter once to win prizes, then they must become members to enter the following year. Non-member entrants below/above a certain age can also enter every year to win membership and smaller prizes. :?:


Mars wrote:
Possibly the open category needs to be broken into age groups and experience levels. When models are entered someone would need to look at the model and categorise it within a skill level. The intention being to encourage new modellers and isolate the prize hunters. Whilst contrary to the points about the idea would be to ensure a degree of control so that the intended entrants are acknowledged for there efforts.


We had two open categories, One for Seniors and one for juniors. Of the juniors we had 4 entries The open categories last was a proof of concept to see if it will work, so we kept it basic. This year we will build on it, also depends if we get re-elected as the committee.

We want GSRM to be a club Focused on modeling and getting the fun back into the hobby. Also we are trying to grow the hobby.

Hope I am making sense, since I cannot seem to think properly this morning


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 11:35 
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Joined: 20 Aug 2010, 14:40
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Quote:
HP_Exarkun wrote:
Mars wrote:
The converse view is that MOY does tend to pull old members out the wood work.

One also has to consider that there may be legitimate reasons as to why some members can only attend a few meetings a year. Quite a few of the members are professionals and their time is scarce.

In the end I would still rather see more models on the table than less.

I know there are some member that cannot attend every single meeting. I am not talking about them. We also have some long distance members who cannot attend.

Unfortunately what I am talking about as that there are members who do not want to attend any club meetings at all. Their only reason for their membership is to enter competitions to win prizes.
We had a case with the last MOY where a member said he rather stay at home than come to a club meeting as he sees that as a waste of time. Said member contacted me prior to competition to find out which classes was not entered yet, as he wants to enter those classes then. That information was not given, and he was upset about it. He did eventually enter some classes, but wanted to change some of his entries after he heard other people entered the same class(not sure where he got that info from)

We have a few other cases as well, and a lot of history of this and to me that is unfair to the guys attending all the meetings or some meetings during the year.

I also think we are losing the spirit of this hobby and possibly the real reason why we are doing this. We are getting to focused on competitions in the hobby. This we can see across the world and with other clubs. Why do we do this hobby? Just to win prizes or to actually doing something that we love.

This is why we the current committee is working on bringing back why we do this. One of the reason also why we started the changes on how MOY is being done by involving outside people to see what the hobby is about. Yes, there is still the competition aspect of it, but we want MOY to grow bigger than that. We want MOY to be a celebration of the clubs achievements and show case what our members are doing.

It is supposed to be all about the members and enjoying the day together. And that is the reason why I feel that guys that just join GRSM to participate in MOY only is a slap in the face for the rest of the members.


What I was alluding to but didn't want say it, is that if rules and categories don't work to modify the behavior ultimately the only way to deal with the problem is sanction the members in question at the discretion of the competition committee. Or amend the rules by including a right of entry, but someone will have to enforce that right.This may do more harm than good in the end.

The challenge you have is that you don't have a way of stopping people taking advantage of the spirit of the competition.


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 19:12 
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Location: Centurion, Pretoria, SA
Tricky one this. I understand that one of the prime reasons for competitions is to provide an impetus to raise the general quality of model builds i.e. inspire others to improve their own builds and provide an example of what can be achieved. This was one of the fundamental reasons for opening MOY to the public.

I do agree that people who do not actively participate in the club should be sanctioned somehow. The problem is, what constitutes an acceptable level of participation ? Attending a minimum number of meets every year or similar and, if so, what constitutes the minimum criteria ? Contribute to sharing expertise via running workshops ?

One off the wall idea is to bring in a percentage of the overall score (say 10%) based on a "handicap" system linked to the number of attendance at annual meets. i.e. if someone only attends twice, they get a representative lower score for this criteria (in this example 2 points). However, as previously noted, this is not really fair to those who cannot attend due to other circumstances. It also fundamentally detracts from the prime goal - the best model scores the highest. It also introduces an additional administrative burden on the GRSM management tracking member participation.

Herman, that said, I think you guys have the judging recipe spot on irrespective of who enters.

Regards


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 17:35 
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Hey HP,

HP_Exarkun wrote:
For the 142 entries we received 84 was aircraft which is 59% of the entries
17 Armor entries 11.9%
7 Rotorcraft 4.9%
1 ship 0.7%
and the rest was dioramas figure and civilian vehicles basically


Thank you for the breakdown :smt023

I'm surprised that armour did not see more representation.

Do you guys have a position on 3D printed models being entered in to competitions?

Regards,
Stratobat

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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2019, 22:15 
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Mistral wrote:
Tricky one this. I understand that one of the prime reasons for competitions is to provide an impetus to raise the general quality of model builds i.e. inspire others to improve their own builds and provide an example of what can be achieved. This was one of the fundamental reasons for opening MOY to the public.

I do agree that people who do not actively participate in the club should be sanctioned somehow. The problem is, what constitutes an acceptable level of participation ? Attending a minimum number of meets every year or similar and, if so, what constitutes the minimum criteria ? Contribute to sharing expertise via running workshops ?

One off the wall idea is to bring in a percentage of the overall score (say 10%) based on a "handicap" system linked to the number of attendance at annual meets. i.e. if someone only attends twice, they get a representative lower score for this criteria (in this example 2 points). However, as previously noted, this is not really fair to those who cannot attend due to other circumstances. It also fundamentally detracts from the prime goal - the best model scores the highest. It also introduces an additional administrative burden on the GRSM management tracking member participation.

Herman, that said, I think you guys have the judging recipe spot on irrespective of who enters.

Regards

Thanks Malcolm, the judging system is still evolving as we go along. We are trying to make it better every year.

I don't want to handicap people, as not everybody can attend all meetings. BUt would rather sanction people that NEVER attends, but this is something that will be discussed at length with the club during the next few months

Stratobat wrote:
Hey HP,

Thank you for the breakdown :smt023

I'm surprised that armour did not see more representation.

Do you guys have a position on 3D printed models being entered in to competitions?

Regards,
Stratobat

It's a pleasure.

3D printed models is still a very grey area. I have been in discussion with various other competition secretaries across the world regarding this abut no proper solution on how it should be handled has come up yet.
From my viewpoint, it should be handled similar to resin models. 3D printed after market is allowed, and a full 3d printed kit(Assembly required), similar to resin kits, should be allowed. But say that a aircraft is completely printed with no assembly then it should not be allowed

What is your thoughts on this?


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 21:04 
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Agreed, completely printed is not modelling 8)


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 21:11 
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Hey HP,

HP_Exarkun wrote:
3D printed models is still a very grey area. I have been in discussion with various other competition secretaries across the world regarding this abut no proper solution on how it should be handled has come up yet.
From my viewpoint, it should be handled similar to resin models. 3D printed after market is allowed, and a full 3d printed kit(Assembly required), similar to resin kits, should be allowed. But say that a aircraft is completely printed with no assembly then it should not be allowed

That sounds fair :smt023

The way I interpret what you've said is that you're allowing people to make use of the medium should they wish to but with the proviso that if it is going to be used to produce a complete 3D printed model, said model should also be assembled just like any other plastic model kit in order to be eligible for competition.

Regards,
Stratobat

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Last edited by Stratobat on 14 Jan 2019, 23:42, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 23:41 
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Hi Guys,

Mistral wrote:
Agreed, completely printed is not modelling 8)

I'm just wondering here but what would happen if a figure modeller designed a 1/16 scale figure in a 3D modelling program and then printed that figure out as a single part?
Could it not be argued that the assembly requirement has been accomplished in the digital environment?

Regards,
Stratobat

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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2019, 07:39 
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Stratobat wrote:
Hi Guys,

Mistral wrote:
Agreed, completely printed is not modelling 8)

I'm just wondering here but what would happen if a figure modeller designed a 1/16 scale figure in a 3D modelling program and then printed that figure out as a single part?
Could it not be argued that the assembly requirement has been accomplished in the digital environment?

Regards,
Stratobat


Figures is the exception to the rules, as you get complete molded figures in both resin and white metal, and this has always been set out like this in our and international rules. Figures are more judged on cleanup of the molded figure(minor score), paint application and representation.


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 Post subject: Re: GRSM MOY 2018
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2019, 21:09 
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Hey HP,

HP_Exarkun wrote:
Figures is the exception to the rules, as you get complete molded figures in both resin and white metal, and this has always been set out like this in our and international rules. Figures are more judged on cleanup of the molded figure(minor score), paint application and representation.

Perhaps the example I used was incorrect but what I'm basically asking is that if you have a modeller and they design a completely original model using a 3D modelling program (It could be a Tank, a Submarine, a Ship, etc.) and they then have that model printed as a single part model, could the modeller not be considered to have assembled a model, albeit in a digital environment?

I'm not talking about the modeller who might purchase a 3D printed part or model that someone else has designed and made commercially available but rather the modeller who would like a model of something that does not exist and who then chooses to use a 3D modelling program to design that model for themselves in a digital environment as opposed to breaking out the plastic card and putty to build the same item in a physical environment using traditional scratchbuilding methods.

From conceptualisation to finished product, the design would be wholly their own work.

Regards,
Stratobat

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