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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 23:10 
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Dean wrote:
The new torpedoes will replace the existing SUT 264s, which were only intended as an interim weapon.


The model most likely to be bought is the STN Atlas DM2A4 Seehecht, as it is specifically designed for the Type 209, the sub's weapons control system is optimised specifically for this torpedo.
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o ... Itemid=363


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 07:33 
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Roger the Dodger wrote:
Dean wrote:
The new torpedoes will replace the existing SUT 264s, which were only intended as an interim weapon.


The model most likely to be bought is the STN Atlas DM2A4 Seehecht, as it is specifically designed for the Type 209, the sub's weapons control system is optimised specifically for this torpedo.
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o ... Itemid=363

Are the existing torpedoes leftovers that were used on the Daphne submarines and integrated on the 209's?


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 09:09 
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Maybe Type 53 from Russia,via Algeria,Algeria seems to be delivering some arms as of late to South Africa.As Algeria uses the Kilo class submarines,also 533mm Torpedoes..which I honestly think its a waste of money,the cost of missiles and torpedoes being not used for war is an enormous waste of the country's funds..unless you the USA..looking for a fight always.I can't see R60mil buying many torpedoes either.A type 53 costs in the region of $400-$800mil a pop..so I guess we getting about 6?

reference
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsystem/H ... %2053.html

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 09:33 
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Airfire wrote:
A type 53 costs in the region of $400-$800mil a pop..so I guess we getting about 6?


Airfire, I think you are out with about 3 orders of magnitude. The site that you quoted says $400,000 to $800,000 each in 1996 (now probably around $1mil). In comparison, a modern US Mark 84 MAKO Lightweight torpedo is quoted at around $840,000 each and a Mark 48 ADCAP Heavy torpedo apparently goes for around $4mil. So, I would say $1mil to $4mil depending on what they plan to buy sounds about right. The R60mil quoted by the article sounds a bit on the very high end though.


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 12:30 
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Mfezi wrote:
Airfire wrote:
A type 53 costs in the region of $400-$800mil a pop..so I guess we getting about 6?


Airfire, I think you are out with about 3 orders of magnitude. The site that you quoted says $400,000 to $800,000 each in 1996 (now probably around $1mil). In comparison, a modern US Mark 84 MAKO Lightweight torpedo is quoted at around $840,000 each and a Mark 48 ADCAP Heavy torpedo apparently goes for around $4mil. So, I would say $1mil to $4mil depending on what they plan to buy sounds about right. The R60mil quoted by the article sounds a bit on the very high end though.


yes..so maybe 4...whats the use of 4...?unless they brand new second hand :lol:

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 16:15 
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Airfire, Mfezi, read the article again, R60mil is the estimated cost per EACH, not per sixpack...
They're not interested in cheapskate second-hand Russian rubbish... :roll:

R60mil is only $4.5mil or €3.8mil - that's within the price range of the DM2A4 Seehecht, the most likely type of torpedo they will get.

Don't forget that such sales deals would normally include training, tools, spares, test equipment, simulation/training software, and perhaps even maintenance for several years.


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 18:11 
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Roger the Dodger wrote:
Airfire, Mfezi, read the article again, R60mil is the estimated cost per EACH, not per sixpack...


Roger, I'm not sure what you read into my post, but this is exactly what I wrote.


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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 07:54 
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Still a waste of our tax money.either way..six pack or not..Still don't see a need for torpedoes in our Navy.

Russia does not have rubbish..They have even better arms than USA these day in terms of technology,we only deal with ex communistic countries remember.

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 19:31 
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Airfire wrote:
Still a waste of our tax money.either way..six pack or not..Still don't see a need for torpedoes in our Navy.

Russia does not have rubbish..They have even better arms than USA these day in terms of technology,we only deal with ex communistic countries remember.

Sorry for resurrecting an oldish thread, have been a bit busy of late.

I disagree that it's a waste of money or that torpedoes aren't needed.

Without torpedoes, submarines are effectively useless in the deterrence role, which is one of the two main purposes for which South Africa acquired them. The other being covert surveillance via optical or ESM/ELINT sensors or the insertion of special forces.

Obviously, there's no immediate need for that deterrent role, given that we don't face any immediate threats, but submarine warfare is an extremely specialised and complex field with the use of torpedoes being one of its most difficult parts and it requires constant work to remain effective. Most importantly, crews at all levels, from shore-based logistics through to submarine officers, to weapons operators, down to the enlisted soldiers working on the weapons directly, have to be completely familiar with every aspect and nuance of the torpedo model in use. The only way to achieve that familiarity is to have the weapons in service, so that crews can train continuously in handling, maintaining, and operating them even if they only fire one every few years to validate the simulation models.

Right now, the SAN's submarine crews are familiar with the SUT-264s which were used on the Daphnes and have been the interim weapon on the Type-209 ever since. But the remaining stock of 264s are going TIMEX and need to either be refurbished or replaced, failing which the SAN will lose its torpedo capability entirely. That won't be disastrous right now, but every year that goes by without torpedoes in service means a further decline in the skills base and an ever-growing amount of time and cost required to re-establish it later. Worse, because this isn't something other countries freely share and most of these skills are built up through hard-won experience, some of them may never be regained if they're not constantly kept up to ensure a smooth handover of knowledge to each new generation of sailors.

IMT did a study that, I believe, determined that the cost of a refurbishment was high enough that moving to a new torpedo became cost-effective. That was also based on the understanding that the original requirement for Project Wills was to adopt a new-generation torpedo, that the DM2A4 was the option tendered for by the GSC, and that the combat systems on the Type 209s delivered to the SAN were optimised for and calibrated to both the SUT-264 and DM2A4.

So the SAN was always going to adopt the DM2A4s at some point as they were always the intended primary weapon for the Type 209s. The expiration of the SUT-264s forced them to make a choice now, and they opted to rather go for the more advanced capability and get a start on learning how to use a more sophisticated torpedo. This'll also let them develop and perfect new doctrine to match what the DM2A4s can do.

To my knowledge, the SAN is also only going to acquire just enough torpedoes to keep its people trained and to ensure its systems are all optimised for it, it's not like it's going to get 200 at R60m apiece.


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