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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 11:25 
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To illustrate some of my points about size and crews:

Image

Is the tween decks layout of a strike craft - the internal hull.

Image

and more or less the same for a type 12 frigate.

The blue is space to accommodate, feed, ablute and basically house the crew. The pink is powering and control, the green is C three and the yellow is weapons. The orange is administration.

Notice the percentage of the internal space which taken up by crew? These ships, designed in the fifties and sixties did not give a stuff about crew comfort - they squeezed in wherever there was a bit of space. What more did a sailor need than 18 inches by six feet in which to sling his hammock?

One of the major reasons for warship size increase over the last few decades has been increase in volume allotted to crew. Electronics is getting smaller and more compact - ditto weapons. Even crew sizes are shrinking - but the modern sailor will not tolerate the conditions that were normal 50 years ago. So a much bigger ship is required. The type twelve nominally housed 240 men on a displacement of 2500 tons. The strike craft 47 (before the madness set in) 450 tons.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 11:43 
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I think the Aussie Armidale vessel is ideal for us.
21 crew, speed 25 kts and range 3000nm
Only armed with a 25mm remote cannon and 2 x 12.7mm guns.
2 x RIB's capable of transporting boarding parties etc.

As to an OPV with hangar facilities surely Meko has such a product.

Damen 8313 do have a weapons fit of a 76mm cannon and 2 x 12.7mm guns, although 76mm is overkill.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 11:46 
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I love this UK website Thinkdefence.

I won't spoil it for you but here is a very long and detailed discussion where a guy argues that one should keep frigates and destroyers solely for their fighting role and should give all the other soft tasks (environmental patrol, humanitarian missions, piracy patrol etc.) to a different class of vessels. Built on commercial designs, as cheap as possible, small crews, everything modular.

He ends up with the ugliest design ever :lol: , but his thinking is really detailed and supported by lots of great vids. Really makes you think.

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/08/a ... roduction/

Edited to add: the design discussion is section 3.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 11:55 
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C-130 wrote:
I think the Aussie Armidale vessel is ideal for us.
21 crew, speed 25 kts and range 3000nm
Only armed with a 25mm remote cannon and 2 x 12.7mm guns.
2 x RIB's capable of transporting boarding parties etc.

As to an OPV with hangar facilities surely Meko has such a product.

Damen 8313 do have a weapons fit of a 76mm cannon and 2 x 12.7mm guns, although 76mm is overkill.


It's not a bad design - with the Typhoon G 25 mm mount I advocated earlier - but it's crew is typical naval crewing standards. The belt and braces boys. Thinking still stuck in the days when sailors were a cheap commodity. With modern electronics one should be able to reduce that quite a bit.

A lot of naval crewing has to do with the rank of the commander of a vessel. Higher rank, more crew he must command. Or be seen to command. Old traditions die hard.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 12:00 
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Eugene wrote:
C-130 wrote:
I think the Aussie Armidale vessel is ideal for us.
21 crew, speed 25 kts and range 3000nm
Only armed with a 25mm remote cannon and 2 x 12.7mm guns.
2 x RIB's capable of transporting boarding parties etc.

As to an OPV with hangar facilities surely Meko has such a product.

Damen 8313 do have a weapons fit of a 76mm cannon and 2 x 12.7mm guns, although 76mm is overkill.


It's not a bad design - with the Typhoon G 25 mm mount I advocated earlier - but it's crew is typical naval crewing standards. The belt and braces boys. Thinking still stuck in the days when sailors were a cheap commodity. With modern electronics one should be able to reduce that quite a bit.

A lot of naval crewing has to do with the rank of the commander of a vessel. Higher rank, more crew he must command. Or be seen to command. Old traditions die hard.


Thats the idea. If crewed by civilians then how are they supposed to "combat" anyone?
The current IPV's carry small arms so cannot see them upgrading arms anytime soon.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 12:20 
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C-130 wrote:
Thats the idea. If crewed by civilians then how are they supposed to "combat" anyone? The current IPV's carry small arms so cannot see them upgrading arms anytime soon.


We are not discussing naval vessels - we are postulating possible coastguard vessels.

I've swiped this from the Wiki site on the Greek coastguard - but many coastguards have similar missions - and modified is somewhat:

Law enforcement at sea, ports and coastal areas, prevention of illegal immigration and piracy
Surveillance of shipping, ports, sea space and borders.
Search and Rescue at Sea.
Protection of the marine environment, response to marine pollution incidents

But it gives an idea of some of what a coastguard should be tasked with - leave the fighting to the navy. Remember: police vs army. Clear cut distinction of areas of responsibility. Police - two cops in a bakkie - army a half dozen guys in a Rooikat. Same with coastguard. With some of the thinking here you can already see the problems piling up. We purchased 9 strike craft - but on no occasion could we ever have more than 6 at sea and usually fewer. Why? No crews available - could not afford them. Ditto with the type 12 frigates - only one occasion ever when three were at sea. Show me a trawler company where a third of it's fleet lies idle because of manning problems? Those guys spend inordinate amounts of time at sea - and every breakdown they have to come in for causes them pain - because they are losing money (crews get a pro-rata cut on the profits their catches make). At Sea Harvest we would turn around a trawler in an average time of 14 hours. That is unload fish, load ice and supplies - have planned maintenance done, refuel and off to sea again. Planned maintenance usually meant pulling a cylinder head off the main engine, pulling the piston and liner - reconditioning and replacing. Because they were commercial engines such a task usually took 4 men 5 hours. It also meant that every third of a year saw the main engine completely overhauled.

You want hulls at sea - enough to be seen by potential miscreants as a valid deterrent. Not a high tech vessel propping up a wall for most of its life.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 12:42 
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You want hulls at sea - enough to be seen by potential miscreants as a valid deterrent. Not a high tech vessel propping up a wall for most of its life.[/quote]

So what is the suggestion then, a converted trawler? Impractical.

Search and Rescue - fine but this is offshore work as we already have NSRI bases all over the coastline. (I know I am crew at one of them)

Ok coastguard vessels do not need SAM / SSM capability and at most 25mm cannon.

Privatize coastguard :lol:


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 13:20 
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C-130 wrote:
So what is the suggestion then, a converted trawler? Impractical. :


Why? Motivate your statement as to the impracticality.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 13:24 
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Benguela wrote:
My idea of what goes on in the engine room was always rusty and kept that way by chief stokers who said I shouldn't touch what I can't afford and should b-off to go and make the firsty's tea.


Quite rightly too. Deckhands should not monkey about with machinery and limit their time in the engine room to an unwelcome but unfortunately necessary traverse of the place, It's where real men who make the ship's existence possible dwell!

BTW - pay due respect and adopt a humble attitude when in the machinery spaces!


Last edited by Eugene on 21 Mar 2012, 14:04, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 13:57 
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Eugene help me out here a bit if I'm horribly off track with this thumbsuck.
Naval crew standard is generally to have 3 people able to do every job on the ship (Except "battle stations" and "damage control" - then even the cook becomes a firefighter and the off duty guys get tossed out of their bunks.)

A coast guard ship would probably work ok with only 2 people for each job and remember they need to provide accomodation for rescued and arrested people.

So let's work out a hypothetical crew for a Lillian Ngoyi class armed CG ship:
This is my idea of the jobs that need to be done while at "action stations" (hostile actions, fishing inspections or SAR)

3 - Driving the ship - Captain, Navigator and someone on the wheel
3 - Engineering - Chief Engineer and two greasemonkeys.
3 - Weapons - depending on which weapons are active. One each on the main gun console and the two Rogue consoles (In SAR mode these become additional eyes glued to binoculars)
2 - Situational awareness - one on radar and one on Optronics
2 - Communications - two pairs of ears and eyes in the comms room
3 - General dogsbodies - damage control, contingencies and odd jobs
6 - Boarding party/rescuers - These are the cops, inspectors, paramedics, that man the RHIB and directly "interface with the clients/subjects"

I don't see how the job can be done with less than about 20.

BTW - In my scenario the missile launcher only comes into play during a war situation when the CG becomes "Navalised". Compare that to police who only use assault rifles during "SWAT" operations - the "bobby on the beat" normally only carries a pistol on his belt and maybe a shotgun in the car.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 14:23 
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3 - Driving the ship - Captain, Navigator and someone on the wheel
3 - Engineering - Chief Engineer and two greasemonkeys.

0 - Weapons - depending on which weapons are active. One each on the main gun console and the two Rogue consoles (In SAR mode these become additional eyes glued to binoculars)

We are not going to have all this - only one electronic gun. The two waist guns
are normal pintle mounted 0.5 inch or 7.62mm. Manned by the greasemonkeys when needed.
Should seldom be. But as the greasemonleys are more qualified to maintain the things let them fire them. They are usually more accurate than gunners anyday.

0 - Situational awareness - one on radar and one on Optronics

You really know how to make extra jobs - the bridge watchkeeper(s) will do this.


0 - Communications - two pairs of ears and eyes in the comms room

Huh? Good lord this is not a 5 star hotel! We did not even have that on a strike craft.

2 - General dogsbodies - damage control, contingencies and odd jobs
---
10 crew.

If a 500 ton Dutch coaster can manage with 5 then 12 are ample.

6 - Boarding party/rescuers - These are the cops, inspectors, paramedics, that man the RHIB and directly "interface with the clients/subjects"

Not normally crew and not normally all carried. Why should they be? This is not a warship. Maybe 2 at any time.

12 all told.

In the Israeli Navy long patrols were run using Daburs. 2 x 20 mm 2 x 0.5 inch. Crew 7. 36 years ago. From Sharm to Eilat and back and to Suez and back.
If you scrapped the Brownings they could do it with five.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 15:21 
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Thanks Eugene.

That would nicely open up room for up to a dozen "passengers" - rescued, arrested, etc. or ad hoc "special purpose crew".

I suppose your scenario has the main gun opertated by one of the bridge denizens - it is after all integrated with the optronics console.

Seeing as SAR is one of the major tasks of a CG who is the ship's medic?

In the Aussie tv show about the adventures of an Armidale crew (yes seriously unreliable source!) it's the guy that leads the seaboat crew/boarding party - tall blonde and handsome - and the cook - pretty lass with big brown eyes - is his assistant.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 16:31 
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Roger the Dodger wrote:
Thanks Eugene.

That would nicely open up room for up to a dozen "passengers" - rescued, arrested, etc. or ad hoc "special purpose crew".

I suppose your scenario has the main gun opertated by one of the bridge denizens - it is after all integrated with the optronics console.

Seeing as SAR is one of the major tasks of a CG who is the ship's medic?

In the Aussie tv show about the adventures of an Armidale crew (yes seriously unreliable source!) it's the guy that leads the seaboat crew/boarding party - tall blonde and handsome - and the cook - pretty lass with big brown eyes - is his assistant.


Multi-task. Ships medic normally an AEA and assistant a BAA.
Main gun operated remotely is a good idea.
Eugene - how practical is it to mount such a gun on a converted trawler? My main issue with a trawler is speed. There is that well known incident where the unarmed Aussie patrol boat could not catch a trawler and chased it into our waters.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 19:05 
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Medics are not part of ship company they SAMH's sea riders.


A lot of the boat crew can have other jobs on the boat. And the deck hands and gunners can be the one and the same.


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 19:21 
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sob wrote:
Medics are not part of ship company they SAMH's sea riders.


A lot of the boat crew can have other jobs on the boat. And the deck hands and gunners can be the one and the same.


Thats what I meant.


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