The SAAF Forum

can anyone tell me how long the type 209's that SA bought can stay submerged without having to surface to recharge the batteries?

Would the 209 be able to be converted to the "sterling" silent run system as used be Sweden's 212 subs?
I saw a thing on TV where the US navy had a hard time to try and fing the Swedes if they were running silent

Theuns

I was told around 24 hours at most economical speed. can extend an exhaust and run the engines while still submerged.

Hi Theuns

The Type 212 is actually the latest German submarine type with AIP, the Swedish version is the Gotland class. From what I understand it would be possible to retrofit the Type 209 vessels with the AIP system.

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A plan is simply a basis for change.

I'm sure that SA will eventually have an AIP upgrade done. Maybe in 10-15 (not a pressing need right now) years or so down the line with the midlife upgrade. The thing that I really wonder about is when is the SAN going to get new torpedoes? and what type?

What torpedoes do the subs have now?

What about light torpedoes for the Lynx and the frigates?
Can the choppers and the deck tubes use the same type?

I saw an interview they had with the nav officer of the UK sub that sank an Argintine naval ship during the Falklands war.
It was an ex US Navy WW2 big ship that was at Pearl, and the 2 options were the smaller "smart" torpedo or the old WW2 tipe big boy. They decided that the ship was so heavely armoured and had so many water tight compartments that the new torpedo would most likely not work and they sank her wit a WW2 old standard torpedo.

How do modern naval vessles fare in comparason? are they also heavely armoured, or not?

Theuns

Modern torpedo's do not hit the target ship they explode underneath breaking the back of the vessel.

The USS Phoenix (Cruiser) was the only combat vessel still around that had been in Pearl harbour that "infamous" morning. She should have been in a museum not sailing the seven seas.

The Brits where cautious of her as the one Argentine plan was for her to go to Port Stanley to be a artillery platform with her naval guns in support of their ground troops. She would have out ranged all the artillery the British had in the Falklands.

The British ships during the Falklands campaign were built using alot of aluminium and that is why they burnt so well.

The burning aluminium story is a thoroughly debunked myth. A few minutes with Google will turn up plenty evidence.

What was the effective range of those massive naval guns? And what size projectile did they fire in comparason to modern let's say 155mm artilary? In other words, were they delivering a bigger bang?

Theuns

Phoenix's (General Belgrano) main armament was 15 x 152mm (6 inch) guns in five turrets, so three (3) guns per turret and she was able to fire 4 salvos per minute so that is 120 shells a minute for a short duration.

What training the Argentine gun crews had I am not sure, as the above firing rate was what she did in combat during WWII.

The British were using their 105mm L118 Light Guns, which with base has a range of 17-20km.

Dont know why, but I thought the caliber of the guns were much bigger
It could be that I am thinking of the big battle ships like the arizona

Theuns

The Belgrano was a light cruiser.
WW2 battleships (one word) mostly had main guns in the 14 to 16 inch range.
The American Iowa class' 16 inch guns had barrels about 20m long (50cal). They fired shells weighing well over 1000kg to a range of about 40 km. It took another fifty years for land artillery to achieve the same range with weenie 155mm (~6 inches) shells weighing less than 50kg.

The snorkel used to obtain air and exhaust fumes for the SAN subs have their origins from the U-Boats of WWII. These WWII snorkels could be detected by radar in WWII. So what makes these modern snorkels less detectable

Off topic of submarines

The German in WWI had the Paris Geschutz (Kaiser Wilhelm Geschutz) which fired 120kg shells containg 7kg of explosive to 130km targeting Paris.

Then in WWII they (Germans) had Schwerer Gustav a true monster of 800mm (80cm) in calibre. This is the biggest breech loaderever. It could fire 7 ton shells to 37km. It was used in combat in the Crimea at the siege of Sevastepol. It blew up a USSR ammo dump that was under the sea floor. It though was more of an oddity and not a very useful weapon. It took days to erect it and needed 2000 men and the Gun commander was a Lt-General. The gun crew was not large but it came with its own Anti-Aircraft defence battery. The shell is taller than a T-34 tank and one is on display in London.

The Germans also had a number of very useful railway guns that could fire out to 50km max, the most famous being Leopold to the Germans but Anzino Annie to the Allies. She and her and partner Robert (Anzio Express) pounded the Anzio beach head. They were used on the Eastern front alot.

They had also been used to bombard England from France and to target shipping in the English Channel.

The Japanese had the Yamato and her sister who had nine 18 inch guns, only the British also used 18 inch guns but on monitors not Battleships. The third one was turned into an aircraft carrier but sunk before being completed.

As far as I recall, the subs are equipped with STN Atlas SUT-264 533mm heavyweight torpedos, delivered in 2006. The SAN's current plans are for these to be replaced by STN Atlas DM2A4 Seehecht (Seahake) 533mm torpedos at some point in the future.

Believe it or not, the Germans toward the end of WW2 were doing experiments with radar absorbent material that would have been perhaps applied to the submarine conning tower and masts.

I'd imagine that in the 21st century, this, along with shaping, may be a little further developed.