The SAAF Forum

Discussion on the SAAF and other southern African air forces.
It is currently 14 Oct 2019, 07:22

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 262 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 18  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Ukraine
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2014, 05:19 
Offline

Joined: 23 Dec 2006, 06:12
Posts: 765
Location: Gauteng, South Africa
As a result of an interesting discussion on the latest development in the Ukraine in another thread, I share an interesting YouTube clip on the topic



A former US secretary of state also has some interesting ideas on the topic:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-crisis-henry-kissinger-urges-policy-not-posturing/

There may be some lessons in there for South Africa too.

_________________
Stay foolish; stay hungry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2014, 19:39 
Offline

Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 00:04
Posts: 202
Thanks for the video - I think it is a pretty good summary and I like that he gives both perspectives. Of course you can nit pick a lot the details, but he seems to have captured the major defining points in he Ukrainian and Crimean history over the last 100 years.

The article on Henry Kissinger's views is also very interesting. He shows some remarkable insight - but I guess that is the result of many, many years of experience in the diplomatic world. I like his recommendations, but as even he admits, it will be difficult to get either side to agree as everyone is expected to give a little. It is worth reading his original article also:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html

I am a little surprised and disappointed in how polarised the media has been on this issue. The big ones all seem to have taken very strong views in support of one of the two sides, and it is quite difficult to find a truly neutral view that just states the facts. The video and article posted by Koffiepit are quite refreshing. The polarisation of the media is only eclipsed by the hotheadedness of the politicians. I hope as the emotions calm down sanity will prevail and they will start considering the more practical solutions like what Kissinger proposes. That may turn out to be too much to hope for.

As a small private aside but that is on-topic for this board: In recent years I have been involved in various aerospace projects, and I am aware of a host of others, where scientists and engineers from the EU and Russia worked side-by-side with mutual respect and no signs of cold-war animosity. I truly hope not to see all that positive progress reversed by recent events.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2014, 23:29 
Offline

Joined: 08 Mar 2009, 05:05
Posts: 3549
Location: Canada
Mfezi wrote:
Thanks for the video - I think it is a pretty good summary and I like that he gives both perspectives. Of course you can nit pick a lot the details,.....

I agree, it can be very difficult to figure what is going on in the muddy waters.
One side says it was a coup, then I hear that when the laws changed, the president was impeached in a vote, some of his party members voted him out.

In Crimea you have unmarked soldiers running around, you don't know who is who. Soldiers or locals dressed in uniform? Some soldiers are asked and they reply they are Russians, Putin says non of his troops are involved. (Some say he says that for local Russian content so Russians don't get upset, many want to live in peace.)
Some vehicle have no number plates, some have Russian number plates. Then the type of vehicles, Italian made vehicles that only the Russian army has in that part of the world, that Ukraine does not posses.

Don't try to fly the Ukrainian flag in Crimea, you will be mobbed, Russian and Soviet flags are fine.
They talk about Fascists in Kiev. Are they being fed propaganda so they revolt?

By international law Crimea is part of Ukraine. They need to cool down and see what kind of government is formed in Kiev.
If they are not happy years down the line, just like Quebec in Canada, just like Scotland in the UK, have a referendum during a period of calm, and not when the politics is in a mess.

Putin will stir the pot to get what he thinks belongs to Russia, never mind what Russia has claimed from other nations since WWII. The rest of the world should stand up to this and let Kiev pull itself together after those riots caused by a dictator that filled his pockets, or so it seems.

As for Henry Kissinger, is he not the one behind they USA getting us to go into Angola, then tells us to get out?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 12:46 
Offline

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 2351
Shooting down of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over the Ukraine

The latest bit of Russian chicanery, lies and plain yesteryear Soviet bulls..t :roll: #-o

Please check the links for images of this shooting down, where the Russians say a Ukrainian jet fired an air to air missile.

"A report by Russian state television claimed to have discovered a 'sensational' satellite photo of the last seconds of the doomed flight over Ukraine". (UK Daily Mail 16 Nov 2014)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -fake.html

"The photographs aired on Russian Channel One news show “Odnako”, on Friday [14 Nov] appeared to show a fighter jet firing a missile at the Malaysian passenger plane in July". (Iran Press TV 15 Nov 2014)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/11/15 ... ting-mh17/

I have listed two sources for obvious reasons ....

My first thought, why did it take the Russians this long, all of four months since July 2014, to conjure up this version? If they were so sure about this scenario, why was it not published much sooner? Also read the analysis of the various contributors whereby the conclusion is reached that the image was 'photoshopped'.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 13:08 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
And to give some balance to what could turn out to be a disaster in Ukraine, an article on Putin talking with Hubert Seipel of the German channel ARD:

http://rt.com/news/206055-putin-ukraine-ethnic-cleansing/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 13:21 
Offline

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 2351
Balerit wrote:
And to give some balance to what could turn out to be a disaster in Ukraine, an article on Putin talking with Hubert Seipel of the German channel ARD:

http://rt.com/news/206055-putin-ukraine-ethnic-cleansing/

From your link "Russia fears ethnic cleansing in Ukraine amid rise of neo-Nazism ".

I take it that you are more acceptable of ethnic cleansing when it's done by the separatists creating a Russian satellite state devoid of the pillars of democracy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 13:23 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
Tally-ho wrote:
Shooting down of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over the Ukraine

The latest bit of Russian chicanery, lies and plain yesteryear Soviet bulls..t :roll: #-o

Please check the links for images of this shooting down, where the Russians say a Ukrainian jet fired an air to air missile.

"A report by Russian state television claimed to have discovered a 'sensational' satellite photo of the last seconds of the doomed flight over Ukraine". (UK Daily Mail 16 Nov 2014)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -fake.html

"The photographs aired on Russian Channel One news show “Odnako”, on Friday [14 Nov] appeared to show a fighter jet firing a missile at the Malaysian passenger plane in July". (Iran Press TV 15 Nov 2014)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/11/15 ... ting-mh17/

I have listed two sources for obvious reasons ....

My first thought, why did it take the Russians this long, all of four months since July 2014, to conjure up this version? If they were so sure about this scenario, why was it not published much sooner? Also read the analysis of the various contributors whereby the conclusion is reached that the image was 'photoshopped'.


Maybe they have learnt from years and years of of American chicanery, lies and plain yesteryear USA bulls..t :roll: #-o


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 13:26 
Offline

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 2351
Oh dear .... :lol:

No ability to discuss the air to air missile? Do you have an opinion on that?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 13:37 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
Exclusive: The U.S. media’s Ukraine bias has been obvious, siding with the Kiev regime and bashing ethnic Russian rebels and Russia’s President Putin. But now – with the scramble to blame Putin for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down – the shoddy journalism has grown truly dangerous, says Robert Parry.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 13:42 
Offline

Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 14:21
Posts: 2351
Balerit, what is your opinion and version on the shooting down of this airliner? Do you have an opinion or can you only quote the opinions of others?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 13:48 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
Tally-ho wrote:
Oh dear .... :lol:

No ability to discuss the air to air missile? Do you have an opinion on that?


Yes another CIA false flag operation.


Last edited by Balerit on 18 Nov 2014, 14:17, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 13:49 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
Something to ponder

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 14:00 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
How can one form an opinion as to what happened without ever having been there and seeing the evidence for yourself. Which reporters does one believe, those who so willingly told us about weapons of mass destruction or does one believe the only other viable source RT or Al Jiseera? Will the truth ever come out, and if it does will you believe it? Once again, we’ve witnessed the world’s most powerful, highly coordinated and synchronized propaganda machine, once it’s set in motion, most western consumers are helpless to fend off its relentless repeating and universal coverage across hundreds of media outlets owned in most part by 5 US, and 2 British corporations.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 14:50 
Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 23:01
Posts: 2290
Tally-ho wrote:
Balerit wrote:
And to give some balance to what could turn out to be a disaster in Ukraine, an article on Putin talking with Hubert Seipel of the German channel ARD:

http://rt.com/news/206055-putin-ukraine-ethnic-cleansing/

From your link "Russia fears ethnic cleansing in Ukraine amid rise of neo-Nazism ".

I take it that you are more acceptable of ethnic cleansing when it's done by the separatists creating a Russian satellite state devoid of the pillars of democracy.


NATO’s Nazis: Ethnic Cleansing Their Opposition in East Ukraine

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/11/17/natos-nazis-ethnic-cleansing-their-opposition-in-east-ukraine/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ukraine
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 15:05 
Offline

Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 00:04
Posts: 202
That picture was indeed debunked pretty quickly by Western commentators. As far as I could see, in the Russian media other news services did present short news stories about the claim made in Odnako (it is a bit like Carte Blanche here in SA), but since even Odnako based their claim solely on what they say is material received in a letter from the US, not much more was made of it. At least not as far as I could see - for example, in TASS there was the one article a few days ago:
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/759835
and then nothing else. The same article given in Tass was published on some other news sites in Russian. No-one did a follow-up, so it seems even in Russia the media is rightly a bit skeptical about the photos.

If anyone is interested, here is the original clip from the program:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU6p7GwDAS8

However, you are wrong that Russia took 4 months to conjure up this version. It was presented by them as a possible alternative theory that should be investigated within four days of the shoot-down, when they provided radar tracks that they claimed showed another aircraft in the vicinity of MH-17. Initially, they said it may have been a Su-25, but since there was no transponder it would be quite difficult to identify the type positively.

Here is 21 July RT article:
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plan ... a-ukraine/

Aviation Week (also 21 July):
http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/russi ... radar-data

And the Independent (also 21 July):
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 19143.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 262 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 18  Next

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group