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The SAAF Forum • View topic - Chengdu JF-17 vs Gripen

The SAAF Forum

Discussion on the SAAF and other southern African air forces.
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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2008, 17:41 
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pngwerume wrote:
I agree on all your three points!

What I don't know is, "how much is a new incoming government required to uphold contracts signed by its predecessor?"


If I recall correctly, international law is a bit murky on this. There is the concept of 'odious debt', which is sovereign debt incurred by an 'odious' regime that were not in the interests or to the benefit of the regime's people and/or was used in part to oppress the population. Some legal scholars believe that the concept of odious debt is sufficient to override one the usual principles of state succession, but this is not a majority view and it's a pretty difficult case to make.

In general terms, a successor government is bound by the contracts negotiated and debts incurred by its predecessor, since those debts and contracts were made in the name of the state of which they are now in charge. If they choose to cancel those contracts, they have to incur the cancellation penalties specified within them and they are liable for the debts. They could choose to refuse to pay those penalties or the debts, of course, but there's nothing to protect them from the consequences of that, such as having their credit rating destroyed or the debtor country instituting punitive tariffs against them.

In practice, this is why South Africa chose to pay off the debts incurred by the apartheid government, rather than repudiating them as odious debt as was mooted at the time. They realised that it was more important to build and maintain international credibility, especially with regard to the economy, and that defaulting on the debts would likely result in a far higher economic cost than shouldering the burden of the legacy debt. I would suggest that Zimbabwe would be well-advised to follow the same path, albeit accompanied by a plea to the international community for help in financing the debt or even for debt relief, some of which will be granted.

Whoever succeeds Mugabe should just hope that contracts like the FC-1 purchase are still largely unfinanced and don't contain highly punitive cancellation clauses, because they'll need to cancel all such procurement for the foreseeable future while they rebuild the country's shattered economy.


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PostPosted: 09 May 2009, 15:54 
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PostPosted: 11 May 2009, 16:30 
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the gripen might be superior than the j17 thunder but i dont think it should
be considered a walkover. its like F-16 vs Mig25 its not obvious that the mig25 would be downed because the mig25 has claimed its fair share of F-16. the thunder is a capable fighter in its own right. it has 12 air to air missles which basically means it can down 12 gripens as compared to gripen s 7. but there is more to the number of missles

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PostPosted: 11 May 2009, 17:10 
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skyhawk77 wrote:
the mig25 has claimed its fair share of F-16.


Would you mind elaborating as I'm not aware of a single instance of a MiG-25 downing a F-16?

I have heard of a USAF F-16 and USAF/Israeli F-15s shooting down a number of MiG-25s, with an Iraqi MiG-25 shooting down a US Navy F/A-18 Hornet in the first Gulf War.


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PostPosted: 11 May 2009, 20:40 
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The MiG 25 was not designed for air combat (that is dog fighting) it was designed to intercept the US super sonic B-70 bomber that never came into service and high flying reconnaissance aircraft. Its strength is its speed and if it became involved in air combat this would be lost.

As an interceptor it was to be used basically as an in air missile launching site. Using its high speed to appear launch and then get out of dodge.

It was also used as a reconnaissance platform and over tenreputely lost to Iranian F-14 using phoenix missiles.


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PostPosted: 12 May 2009, 12:53 
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skyhawk77 wrote:
the mig25 has claimed its fair share of F-16.


I know I'm going to be disappointed, but could you furnish proof please?


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PostPosted: 12 May 2009, 13:57 
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Just so you guys and gals know who you are debating, Skyhawk77 once told me in a private message that the Zim AF have balloons that can shoot enemy aircraft 800km away.
ROTFLMAO!


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PostPosted: 12 May 2009, 15:39 
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Given the hot air, balloons would seem to be appropriate.

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PostPosted: 12 May 2009, 15:39 
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Hence the caveat that I know I'm going to be disappointed.

Skyhawk, please tell me more of these balloons. They sound interesting.


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PostPosted: 12 May 2009, 16:29 
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leading edge u shouldnt judge me u know. the issue pertaining the mig25 you can find it here among other websites http://backfiretu-22m.tripod.com/id11.html

can i clarify on the zim ,thunder issue.

never underestimate the power of fear it can save empower or destroy and uncle bob is afraid.laugh at zim and the thunder at your own peril because afz is equipped. in october 2008 gvt of zim brutally curbed illegal diamond mining in the eastern part of the country and a few weeks later vladimir putin and some prospectors came into the country then went back a few days later. in november 2008 the afz received 6 thunders of the 15 and placed an order of the "continuation' j-10 vigorous dragon while the rest of the population is langusishing in poverty. in my view zanu pf is the wealthiest ruling party at the same time the most afraid. talk about negative gdp and economy on its knees thats the gvt s problem not zanu pf s

gripen vs thunder i now think they are on par on the latter is superior.the thunder has high ceiling than the gripen. can carry more AAMS and the radar can monitor 40 gripens and managing 10 of them and shooting down 12. and the gripen can guide 4 AAMs simultaneouisly to 4 diff targets menaing that after that it will be left with 3 AAMs. thats some of the stuff i have gathered as for speed and range more or less the same.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /jf-17.htm

sometimes i cant help wonedring what the SAAF were banking on before the arrival of the first gripen because to me the country was vulnerable and in case mugabe went bersek no fighter cld intercept the mig23 and fc1. and i also wonder why the AFZ only sends the k-8 to air shows is it the only plane they have or playing the enemy. i wonder

http://www.saairforce.co.za/news-and-ev ... imbabweans
http://cryptome.info/za-zim.htm
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/articl ... 2008-07-18

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEbv02k7Ag


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PostPosted: 12 May 2009, 17:34 
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OK, I think you are confusing the MiG-25 Foxbat and the MiG-23 Flogger, completely different aircraft with completely different roles.

I had a look at http://backfiretu-22m.tripod.com/id11.html ... an anonymous website. :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is generally accepted that during Operation Peace for the Galilee and the 1982 Lebanon War, the IAF downed approximately 90 Syrian Migs without loss.

A good article was the one published by Aerospace Power Journal (Winter 1989):
The BEKAA Valley Air Battle. You can find a copy at http://www.pakdef.info/forum/archive/in ... -8588.html

This is an extract:
Quote:
Reports of what happened next vary. It is generally accepted that in the course of the first attack against the Bekaa an 9 June 1982, the IAF destroyed 17 of the 19 Syrian SAM batteries and their radar sites, as well as 29 Syrian Air Force (SAF) fighters, without loss. The following day, the IAF destroyed the remaining two missile batteries. The SAF once more challenged the Israelis and lost approximately 35 more aircraft, again without downing an Israeli aircraft. By the end of July, Syria had lost at least 87 aircraft, while Israeli losses amounted to a few helicopters, one RF-4E, and an A-4 Skyhawk downed by a PLO SA-7.

Naturally, Arab claims differed from Western and Israeli accounts. The Syrian news agency SANA claimed that 19 Israeli and 14 Syrian planes had been downed on 9 June. The next day, the Syrians maintained that six Israeli and seven Syrian aircraft had been destroyed, while no mention was made on either day of any damage to their SAMS. The Soviets went even further in extolling the SAF's combat virtues: the military newspaper Red Star announced triumphantly that "sixty-seven Israeli aircraft, including modern US-made F-15 and F-16 fighters, were downed" in the fighting. Further Soviet reports included an account in Red Star about a meeting with a Syrian airman who eagerly recounted an engagement in which he shot down an Israeli F-15: "The victory had not been easy; the enemy had been subtle."

These claims met with great skepticism, even within Soviet ranks. After the Bekaa Valley debacle, for example, a story circulated around the Soviet military about how the Syrian Air Force maintained a departure control but no approach control. Even the Syrians themselves privately admitted defeat. After the Bekaa turkey shoot, Gen Mustafa Tlas, the defense minister, told President Hafez Assad and other government leaders that "the Syrian Air Force was outclassed, the ground-to-air missiles useless, and that without air cover, the army could not fight on." Indeed, it seems a bit odd that the Soviets would celebrate a great Syrian victory by sending the first deputy commander of the Soviet air defense forces to find out what went wrong. It seems even stranger that they would conclude that a new SAM system of SA-8s, SA-9s, and long-range SA-5s was necessary, manned by some 1,000 to 1,500 Soviet "advisers."


Wikipedia, to which any person can contribute, states at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force
Quote:
During the 1982 Lebanon War, IAF planes destroyed many Syrian air defences (most of them in Operation Mole Cricket 19) and shot down 100 Syrian aircraft without losing a single fighter plane in an air to air combat.


From http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Israeli:Air:Force.htm
Quote:
During 1982 Operation Peace for Galilee, IAF warplans destroyed the Syrian air defence without a single fighter lost and shot down Syrian aircraft


I very much doubt any F-16 has been shot down by another fighter in air combat.

I stongly suggest that you review your research sources. Anonymous websites, particularly the free ones, are not a good source of info. Compare that information with other sources, ones that are published, independant, open to scrutiny and who disclose their sources.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2009, 16:17 
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rodger the dodger instead of dodging missles you dodge facts and then try to force your convictions and beliefs of pple like uncle bob. seeing you wont stop taunting me and laughing at me as if i m crazy how about this http://www.hayibo.co.za/articles/view/931
if you are not satisfied which is most likely how about you visit zimbabwe s border towns. by the way just so u know the russians couldnt upgrade the radar of the mig23 so what did they do- they substituted helmets with boeing like helmets but these are russian. you lock a target by merely looking at it. whose bad.i think the afz is cool.

i dont know much but you dont know at all

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"My dream is that somehow South Africans and Zimbabweans create relationships of such a nature that the Limpopo river is no longer a border, but is a source of water and food.” -Bishop Paul Verryn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEbv02k7Ag


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PostPosted: 13 May 2009, 17:48 
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skyhawk77 wrote:
seeing you wont stop taunting me and laughing at me as if i m crazy how about this http://www.hayibo.co.za/articles/view/931


I strongly suggest you take my suggestion from above and research the background to the websites you keep refering to.

Hayibo is a well known satirical* website, making fun of current news events.

In other words: Whatever Hayibo writes is fiction, made up, not true, written for comical purposes or political satire only!

* Satire: Defined by the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary as literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn.

But Skyhawk77, do not go away as I do enjoy your posts. :D


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PostPosted: 13 May 2009, 18:48 
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Joined: 09 Nov 2006, 17:30
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skyhawk77 wrote:
seeing you wont stop taunting me and laughing at me as if i m crazy how about this http://www.hayibo.co.za/articles/view/931
if you are not satisfied which is most likely how about you visit zimbabwe s border towns.


skyhawk77 wrote:
sometimes i cant help wonedring what the SAAF were banking on before the arrival of the first gripen because to me the country was vulnerable and in case mugabe went bersek no fighter cld intercept the mig23 and fc1. and i also wonder why the AFZ only sends the k-8 to air shows is it the only plane they have or playing the enemy. i wonder


Those weather balloons are obviously a far greater threat than the MiG-23 and FC1. How do you think the Gripen would fare against these ballons and are they a greater threat than the JF-17? Wouldn't it be a better idea to acquire more of these balloons instead of the JF-17 or is the AFZ opting for a hi-lo mix?

And in other news froms Hayibo:
Quote:
SA criminals celebrate deputy Police Minister Mbalula
South African criminals have welcomed the appointment of former ANC Youth League President Fikile Mbalula as Deputy Minister of Safety and Security, saying that it signals the end of the government's fight against crime and the beginning of an "off the hook bitchin' crime parteh" during which caps will be popped in people's bottoms.

http://hayibo.com/articles/view/1036

Quote:
Assault rifle manufacturers woo Zuma ahead of inauguration

PRETORIA. As Jacob Zuma prepares to become President of South Africa, the world's leading manufacturers of assault rifles are hoping he will name their brand as part of his acceptance speech at Saturday's inauguration. According to the weapons manufactures, having Zuma sing "Bring me my M-16" or "Bring me my Uzi" will be worth billions.

http://hayibo.com/articles/view/1034

This beats News24 anyday :lol:


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PostPosted: 15 May 2009, 08:39 
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DELTAWING :lol: :lol: :lol:

Skyhawk please take a hint of advice from Dean.

Skyhawk: The Gripen can only shoot down 7 a/c [-X the Gripen has been incorporated with double rail launchers which can use both Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground weapons thus increasing the missile carrying capacity and not forgetting a gun which is more than capable of shooting down an a/c.

So are you saying that Zim AF has or the Russian AF has MIG-23's with operational HMCS?


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